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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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Is this what Randi has devolved into? Talking about what happens on CODOH?


I realize that believing what you believe requires a special sort of... sight, but Mr. Randi isn't participating in this thread. Also, this is a single thread out of thousands on the forum.

Proper perspective would do you well.
 
By the way, transcripts of conversation of Eichmann with two Nazi sympathisers have surfaced in the last few days. The conversations were made when Eichmann lived in Argentina. In the tape he brags about his role in the Holocaust:


Here is a top Nazi bragging about his crimes while he was free.

I believe he also wrote letters to relatives in Germany in which he did similar. Memory is not so good, it was a documentary on "Yesterday", a UK channel.
 
By the way, transcripts of conversation of Eichmann with two Nazi sympathisers have surfaced in the last few days. The conversations were made when Eichmann lived in Argentina. In the tape he brags about his role in the Holocaust:


Before his arrest by Israel's Mossad intelligence service, Adolf Eichmann boasted openly to other foreigners in Argentina of the war crimes he had committed. He confided in one journalist that his only mistake was not having murdered all the Jews. "We didn't do our work correctly," he said.


Here is a top Nazi bragging about his crimes while he was free.

Well one more piece of evidence making Eichmann not a good example of the "banality of evil".
 
Before his arrest by Israel's Mossad intelligence service, Adolf Eichmann boasted openly to other foreigners in Argentina of the war crimes he had committed. He confided in one journalist that his only mistake was not having murdered all the Jews. "We didn't do our work correctly," he said.

Is the transcript available? I don't see how those quotes mean that he wished they had murdered all the jews. I don't think it would have been out of character for Eichmann to have had those thoughts, I just didn't find the relevant transcript-based reasoning to indicate it.
 
Is the transcript available? I don't see how those quotes mean that he wished they had murdered all the jews. I don't think it would have been out of character for Eichmann to have had those thoughts, I just didn't find the relevant transcript-based reasoning to indicate it.

As far as I could see, there is no link for the transcripts. Anyway, the quote brought by the paper is:
"We didn't do our work correctly," he said. "There was more that could have been done."
How would you interpret that?
 
How would you interpret that?

Going by the premise that he said it in a context of wanting to kill all jews, I'd probably interpret that to mean he wanted all jews to have been killed. But this is a simple principle of context, to which I wasn't able to find any context that matched the quotes unless I personally inferred an assumption.

"We didn't do our work correctly" could very well intend any number of qualifiers from his point of view, the same applies to "there was more that could've been done". That's why I asked if the transcript was available for scrutiny, or if one has to rely on second-hand hearsay, on quotes that tells us little about the inferred alleged sentiments.
 
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Going by the premise that he said it in a context of wanting to kill all jews, I'd probably interpret that to mean he wanted all jews to have been killed. But this is a simple principle of context, to which I wasn't able to find any context that matched the quotes unless I personally inferred an assumption.

"We didn't do our work correctly" could very well intend any number of qualifiers from his point of view, the same applies to "there was more that could've been done". That's why I asked if the transcript was available for scrutiny, or if one has to rely on second-hand hearsay, on quotes that tells us little about the inferred alleged sentiments.
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The transcripts and original tapes were given to his widow, Veronika, in 1980. AFAIK, she has also passed, but I'm sure you could run them down by contact her heirs.

One should note that she never disputed that Eichy was talking about the slaughter of the Jews.
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The transcripts and original tapes were given to his widow, Veronika, in 1980. AFAIK, she has also passed, but I'm sure you could run them down by contact her heirs.

One should note that she never disputed that Eichy was talking about the slaughter of the Jews.
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According to Der Spiegel:
There is not a single word of regret on the tapes, which are now in the German Federal Archives in Koblenz.
So they should be reachable. I just do not have a link.
 
The transcripts of Eichmann's interview with ...
Willem Sassen, contains this excerpt that Holocaust denier have been trying to hand wave away, unsuccessfully, for years:

"Und aus dieser Motivierung heraus müssen sie verstehen wenn ich sage wenn 10,3 Millionen diese Gegner getötet worden wären, dann hätten wir unsere Aufgabe erfüllt." Nun das nicht so ist, werde ich Ihnen sagen, dass das Leid und das Ungemach unserer noch nicht Geborenen zu gestehen habe. Vielleicht werden sie uns verfluchen. Allein, wir kommen als wenige Leute gegen den Zeitgeist nicht anstinken. Wir haben getan, was wir konnten. Selbstverständlich, mu ich Ihnen sagen, kommt dazu menschliche Regung. Auch ich bin nicht frei gewesen davon, auch ich unterlag derselben Schwäche, das weiß ich, auch ich bin schuld mit daran, daß die vielleicht von irgendeiner Stelle vorgesehene oder nicht vorgeschwebte Konzeption der Wirklichen, umfassenden Eliminierung nicht durchgeführt hat werden können. Ich erzähle Ihnen das in kleine Beispielen. Ich war ein Unzulänglicher Geist und wurde an einer Stelle gesetzt, wo ich in Wahrheit mehr hatte machen können und mehr hatte machen müssen. Als Entschuldigung mag dienen, was Ich Ihnen sagte, einmal daß es mir umfassenden Geist fehlte, als zweites mag dienen, daß es mir an physischen harte< fehlte, und als drittes mag gelten, daß sich selbst gegen mein Wollen eine Legion von Leuten einfand, die selbst gegen dieses Wollen wiederum anstanken, so daß ich, der ich selbst schon mich gehandikapt fühlte, auch der Rest, dem ich etwa Durchbruch verholfen hatte, wiederum nur mit Abstrichen durchfuhren konnte, weil ich mich verzetteln mußte in einen jahrelangen Kampf gegen die sogenannten Interventionisten."

The key words have been translated into English already.
 
Willem Sassen, contains this excerpt that Holocaust denier have been trying to hand wave away, unsuccessfully, for years:

"Und aus dieser Motivierung heraus müssen sie verstehen wenn ich sage wenn 10,3 Millionen diese Gegner getötet worden wären, dann hätten wir unsere Aufgabe erfüllt." Nun das nicht so ist, werde ich Ihnen sagen, dass das Leid und das Ungemach unserer noch nicht Geborenen zu gestehen habe. Vielleicht werden sie uns verfluchen. Allein, wir kommen als wenige Leute gegen den Zeitgeist nicht anstinken. Wir haben getan, was wir konnten. Selbstverständlich, mu ich Ihnen sagen, kommt dazu menschliche Regung. Auch ich bin nicht frei gewesen davon, auch ich unterlag derselben Schwäche, das weiß ich, auch ich bin schuld mit daran, daß die vielleicht von irgendeiner Stelle vorgesehene oder nicht vorgeschwebte Konzeption der Wirklichen, umfassenden Eliminierung nicht durchgeführt hat werden können. Ich erzähle Ihnen das in kleine Beispielen. Ich war ein Unzulänglicher Geist und wurde an einer Stelle gesetzt, wo ich in Wahrheit mehr hatte machen können und mehr hatte machen müssen. Als Entschuldigung mag dienen, was Ich Ihnen sagte, einmal daß es mir umfassenden Geist fehlte, als zweites mag dienen, daß es mir an physischen harte< fehlte, und als drittes mag gelten, daß sich selbst gegen mein Wollen eine Legion von Leuten einfand, die selbst gegen dieses Wollen wiederum anstanken, so daß ich, der ich selbst schon mich gehandikapt fühlte, auch der Rest, dem ich etwa Durchbruch verholfen hatte, wiederum nur mit Abstrichen durchfuhren konnte, weil ich mich verzetteln mußte in einen jahrelangen Kampf gegen die sogenannten Interventionisten."

The key words have been translated into English already.

Here's a Bing translation:

"And from this motivation out they need to understand when I say when 10.3 million these opponents would be killed, then we have fulfilled our task." Now not so that I'll tell you that to confess have the suffering and the affliction of our still born. Perhaps they will curse us. We come alone, as few people against the spirit of the times is not anstinken. We have done what we could. Of course, must I tell you, is human emotion. I've been not free of, I was subject to the same weakness, I know, I'm with because, that which perhaps not conducted provided for or not vorgeschwebte conception of real, comprehensive elimination of any job can be. Am I telling you in small samples. I was a poor spirit and was set at a point where I actually had to make more and more had to make. May serve as an excuse, what I told you again that lacked comprehensive mind me, as like second serve, that it to physical hard < was missing, and a third may apply a legion of people dragging themselves against my will", which anstanken itself against this will in turn, so I which I have already felt handicapped, the rest I had helped about breakthrough which carry out only with the Downstrokes could, because I had to fritter in a long fight against the so-called interventionists."

Here's a video (in German) of historian Irmtrud Wojak reviewing one of the actual tapes.



According to the YT description, the money quote is the first one we hear in Eichmann's own voice in the video.

Eichmann says: "No, I must say truthfully that if we had killed all the 10 million Jews that Himmler's statisticians originally listed in 1933, I would say: Good, we have destroyed an enemy."
 
Doctor Evil said:
According to the YT description, the money quote is the first one we hear in Eichmann's own voice in the video.

Eichmann says: "No, I must say truthfully that if we had killed all the 10 million Jews that Himmler's statisticians originally listed in 1933, I would say: Good, we have destroyed an enemy."
In that sentence -from a little earlier in the conversation- Eichmann mentioned Korherr by name and went on to say that through a nasty twist of fate a large portion of the Jews still managed to escape with their lives.

"Ich sage Ihnen, Kamerad Sassen, das kann ich nicht. Das kann ich nicht weil ich nicht bereit bin, weil sich mir das Innere sträubt etwa zu sagen wir hätten etwas falsch gemacht. Nein. Ich muß Ihnen ganz ehrlich sagen, hätten wir von den 10,3 Millionen Juden, die Korherr ausgewiesen hat, wie wir jetzt wissen, 10,3 Juden getötet dann wäre ich befriedigt und wurde sagen, gut, wir haben einen Feind vernichtet. Nun durch des Schicksals Tücke der Großteil dieser 10.3. Millionen Juden am Leben erhalten geblieben sind, sage ich mir, das Schicksal wollte es so. Ich habe mich dem Schicksal und der Vorsehung unterzuordnen."

I'm fairly certain the translated words attributed to Eichmann in the English language Spiegel article mentioned by Doctor Evil come from the excerpt I quoted in German. But no matter, one money quote or the other. Youtube is the preferred HD source anyway and Wojak works for me.
 
"Ich sage Ihnen, Kamerad Sassen, das kann ich nicht. Das kann ich nicht weil ich nicht bereit bin, weil sich mir das Innere sträubt etwa zu sagen wir hätten etwas falsch gemacht. Nein. Ich muß Ihnen ganz ehrlich sagen, hätten wir von den 10,3 Millionen Juden, die Korherr ausgewiesen hat, wie wir jetzt wissen, 10,3 Juden getötet dann wäre ich befriedigt und wurde sagen, gut, wir haben einen Feind vernichtet. Nun durch des Schicksals Tücke der Großteil dieser 10.3. Millionen Juden am Leben erhalten geblieben sind, sage ich mir, das Schicksal wollte es so. Ich habe mich dem Schicksal und der Vorsehung unterzuordnen."

Well, my german isn't what it used to be (my swedish helps a bit either way), but it does sound like he talked about his part in the effort to destroy the jews (also how, if he was told that they had been destroyed, in his role then he would've felt the job was done) but at the same time noted that Destiny preserved the large part of the 10,3 million jews and how he accepted that this was the will of Destiny and its Order of Life in opposition to his deeds, talking about his personal struggle to recognize the meaning of all what had happend.

Edit: I also noticed that in David Ceserani's book "Becoming Eichmann" there's frequent use of the transcripts of Sassen's sessions with him.
 
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"Ich sage Ihnen, Kamerad Sassen, das kann ich nicht. Das kann ich nicht weil ich nicht bereit bin, weil sich mir das Innere sträubt etwa zu sagen wir hätten etwas falsch gemacht. Nein. Ich muß Ihnen ganz ehrlich sagen, hätten wir von den 10,3 Millionen Juden, die Korherr ausgewiesen hat, wie wir jetzt wissen, 10,3 Juden getötet dann wäre ich befriedigt und wurde sagen, gut, wir haben einen Feind vernichtet. Nun durch des Schicksals Tücke der Großteil dieser 10.3. Millionen Juden am Leben erhalten geblieben sind, sage ich mir, das Schicksal wollte es so. Ich habe mich dem Schicksal und der Vorsehung unterzuordnen."

"I tell you, comrade Sassen, I cannot do that. I cannot do that, because something inside me refuses to say we did anything wrong. No. I must tell you honestly, if we had, of the 10.3 million Jews which Korherr showed to exist, as we know now, killed 10.3 Jews [presumably "10.3 million Jews"], then I would be pleased and would say, fine, we have annihilated an enemy. Only due to fate´s trickery [did] the majority of these 10.3 million Jews stay alive, so I tell myself, fate wanted it that way. I have to subordinate myself to fate and predestination."
 
The statements are very ambiguous. Or the interviews are forged. Or Eichmann was being tortured. Or there are laws against honest and truthful research into these matters.
 
The statements are very ambiguous. Or the interviews are forged. Or Eichmann was being tortured. Or there are laws against honest and truthful research into these matters.

What you´re trying to tell us is, you know as well as we do that what I´ve translated is an honest statement, but your worship of the Nazis and hatred of the Jews prevents you from admitting it. Right?
 
The statements are very ambiguous. Or the interviews are forged. Or Eichmann was being tortured. Or there are laws against honest and truthful research into these matters.

Hey, why not all of the above? Maybe it's a forged interview of Eichmann being tortured into making ambiguous statements.
 
The Sassen interview makes the truth of the Holocaust plainly clear.

Its seems to me that the fact of the Nazi program for extermination of the Jews is set in stone.

The only realistic debate now is how many Jews were victims of this policy.
 
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