Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[little grey rabbit]

Richard Green has a Ph.D. in physical chemistry and did a postdoc with the DoD on the possible use of cyanide gas in war.

Indeed, having a discussion with him would not be so frustrating. I never said you couldn't find a scientifically literate person to defend the cyanide issue, I said you could not find a scientifically literate person to do so honestly. For example, I believe it was Dr Green [it may have been someone else] who claimed that blue staining of the outside of the fumigation chambers must have been the result of some kind of paint - this of obviously a dishonest argument to advance.

Yet even Dr Green, disingenous though he was, was forced to make some interesting concessions. For example, he stated that the Zyklon B would have to have been removed while still outgassing from the "Kula columns" for his calculations to work - as Zyklon B takes sometime to outgas. There is, of course, no eye witness testimony for this at all. And it is not even possible for Krema 4 and 5.

 

[Wroclaw]

For example, I believe it was Dr Green [it may have been someone else] who claimed that blue staining of the outside of the fumigation chambers must have been the result of some kind of paint - this of obviously a dishonest argument to advance.

That's a gross misrepresentation of his views.

I would direct everyone's attention here:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ww.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/

He lists the paint issue in that article as one of three possible reasons why the staining is there.

There are three conceivable explanations for this difference.

1. The presence of Prussian-blue staining is a necessary consequence of exposure to HCN and the fact that it is not present in the homicidal chambers proves they were not used for homicidal gassing.

2. The Prussian-blue staining is present for reasons having nothing to do with the exposure to HCN. For example Bailer has suggested it may be a pigment from paint. 76

3. The Prussian-blue staining indeed owes its presence to exposure to HCN, but the conditions under which it formed were not universally present in all facilities exposed to HCN. The rate of Prussian-blue formation may be very different under the conditions used in homicidal chamber versus the conditions in delousing chambers.
Answer number one is, of course, untenable. We know that homicidal gassings occurred from historical evidence independently of the chemistry involved. Nevertheless, I will suspend my disbelief for a moment. If the lack of Prussian blue is supposed to prove that no gassing took place, possibilities 2 and 3 must be disproven. If it is not possible to do so, then the impossibility of gassings at the Kremas has not been shown.

Note that the idea is not actually Green's.

In a different article, Green writes this:

Owing to the fact that he cannot think of a mechanism by which the Prussian blue could form from iron in its third oxidation state (as present in brick), Bailer 6 speculates that the presence of iron blues may be because of paint rather than exposure to HCN vapor (iron blues are commonly used as pigments in paints). Bailer's speculation, although it is certainly more reasonable than the claims of Rudolf that homicidal gassings did not occur at AB, must still be viewed with skepticism. If paint was indeed used on these facilities, it should be possible to find evidence that such paint was purchased and applied. The paint hypothesis needs more evidence to support it, if it is to be believed.

Again, I think you're being dishonest.

Yet even Dr Green, disingenous though he was, was forced to make some interesting concessions. For example, he stated that the Zyklon B would have to have been removed while still outgassing from the "Kula columns" for his calculations to work - as Zyklon B takes sometime to outgas.

No, he doesn't say that. He says that Zyklon B was removed sometimes using the columns. But he says that was not always necessary.

To summarize, these are the worst-case ventilation assumptions for the main Auschwitz gas chambers, in crematoria II and III:

the largest amount of Zyklon used (sufficient for 20 g/m3 at full outgassing);
a thorough outgassing period of 30 minutes (probably longer than was typically used);
a fast outgassing (40% during that time);
a conservative estimation of ventilation efficiency;
and a date in 1943, when the gas chamber was twice as large as 1944.
Using those assumptions, the Sonderkommando could remove their gas masks after just 18 minutes and suffer no significant effects (beyond a cough caused by the nontoxic Zyklon irritant). If they were to wait just 24 minutes, their workplace would conform even to OSHA regulations.
But OSHA, of course, does not publish regulations that apply to slave labor incineration of hundreds of freshly murdered corpses.

See:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...tory.org/auschwitz/chemistry/not-the-science/

There is, of course, no eye witness testimony for this at all.

There doesn't have to be because he didn't say that was the only possibility. And if you remove the Zyklon B using the columns, you're extracting it back into the open air. Not a problem.

And it is not even possible for Krema 4 and 5.

Because there was no ventilation? Doesn't matter. They could withdraw the Zyklon B into the open air.

The whole freaking thing is one great big red herring, as far as I'm concerned.

Until one of you guys is willing to replicate the details of a homicidal gassing with any degree of verisimilitude — using yourselves and your families as the gassees — I don't care how much "pseudoscience" you throw at me. They used to say to the "HIV doesn't cause AIDS" crowd that they should inject themselves with HIV if they're so sure.

You all should put yourself in the "Holocaust story" conditions. If you survive, I'll be happy to give you a million dollars.

 

[Wroclaw]

Here's another screecher: "Witchcraft and sorcery were determined in official state courts to be scientific fact."

No, they were determined to be fact — not scientific fact. There is a difference.

By the way, in Irving v. Lipstadt, gas chambers were determined to be scientific fact.

And I see Library Boy has responded yet again. I can smell the panic.

Somebody please tell this idiot to grow a pair...

 

[Wroclaw]

Sometimes, I miss David Cole...

The importance (to me of this Goebbels diary passage is that for the
first time we have a reliable piece of evidence which points to a
plan of separation between those Jews fit for "labor" and the rest,
who "have to be liquidated." Hate it though some of us may, this fits
the "exterminationist" model much better than it does the revisionist
one. If revisionists wish to explain this passage some other way,
they'll have to do better than the explanation offered by Faurisson.
For myself, I can say that the meaning of this Goebbels diary
passage, IN RELATION to events occurring at that time, has yet to be
adequately explained by any revisionist.

And Faurisson's explanation of the "Jew transport from Berlin. No
liquidation" Himmler note is similarly thin. He neglects to take into
account that this entire transport WAS liquidated, in toto. If "no
liquidation" meant "no individuals in this transport are scheduled
for execution," and if this was the policy (to inform Heydrich of any
individuals on each transport who might be scheduled for executions),
then why was the entire transport liquidated? It seems to me that a
better explanation is that these Jews were being sent to an area
where liquidations of Jews were taking place, and for whatever reason
(and this is something that the "exterminationists" have yet to
explain) Hitler and/or Himmler decided that this transport should be
exempted. But it was too late. If Faurisson wishes to support his
version, I'd ask him if there are any other notes from Himmler to
Heydrich, or records of any conversations between the two men, about
individuals in any of these transports who were scheduled for
execution upon arrival. In other words, if it was commonplace for
Himmler to alert Heydrich of any individuals in these transports who
were scheduled to be executed, then there should be records of these
orders (i.e. "Jew transport from Berlin. Five liquidations." "Jew
transport from Berlin. Twenty liquidations." "Jew transport from
Berlin. No liquidations." etc. etc.). I'm not asking rhetorically;
I'm genuinely curious.

Ever wonder if he staged his own blackmailing?

 

[little grey rabbit]

No, he doesn't say that. He says that Zyklon B was removed sometimes using the columns. But he says that was not always necessary.



See:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...tory.org/auschwitz/chemistry/not-the-science/



There doesn't have to be because he didn't say that was the only possibility. And if you remove the Zyklon B using the columns, you're extracting it back into the open air. Not a problem.



Because there was no ventilation? Doesn't matter. They could withdraw the Zyklon B into the open air.

This is why it is annoying discussing these issues with people who can't read basic science but still seem to think they can bluff there way through.

The issue with Zyklon B is that is was absorbed onto a carrier to regulate the speed of release - making it safer and more convenient to handle as the gas masks had only limited efficiency and you didn't want the handler enveloped into a cloud of cyanide gas during fumigation procedures. The speed of gas dissipation was dependent on the temperature. This is why the SS for building fumigation had strict guidelines as to how long you have to leave Zyklon before turning on ventilation and how long you had to leave the ventilation on. If you turn the ventilation on immediately you ran the risk of still having cyanide degassing from the pellets when you have finished the ventilation.

Dr Green dealt with the issue thusly

It is not the case that the full concentration of Zyklon was present. At the largest Auschwitz crematoria (II and III), the Zyklon was removed after a lethal quantity of gas was given off, using the same devices which inserted it. At these buildings, where the large majority of gassings took place, essentially any absolute rate of outgassing could be achieved, at any temperature and humidity, by pouring in sufficient Zyklon. Once the victims were dead, the remaining carrier material could be lifted out by SS men wearing gas masks, to continue outgassing harmlessly into the open air until spent.

What Dr Green is saying here is that gassings and ventilation could have worked in the time frames specified by the eyewitnesses - IF THE ZYKLON B WAS LOWERED INTO THE COLUMNS in a bucket and string type arrangement. So when the gassing time was completed, the still active outgassing pellets could be removed and carried off .....where?

1. In Krema II and III this would (if you ignore the fact they were bakeries) have been technically possible - BUT NO ONE EVER DESCRIBED SUCH A PROCEDURE.
2. In Krema IV and V (OK, really weaving mills) this was not even possible - once the pellets were thrown in, they would have to lie on the floor until completely outgassed (more than an hour).

Inspection of Irmscher's paper shows (assuming the Erco carrier) that the concentration that would be present after 30 minutes, for example, would have been 20 to 40% of the total, i.e., 900-7200 ppmv. So it was only necessary to reduce the concentration in the gas chambers by a factor of 20-200 times in order for the Sonderkommando to enter even without gas masks. The remainder of the Zyklon could outgas safely in the outside atmosphere - without, needless to say, "poisoning the entire camp."

With a maximum of chutzpah, Dr Green after having invented a procedure whereby partially degassed pellets were removed, then uses this to decrease the ventilation time - although even here he cheats by using a false ventilation fan capacity about 50% greater than what is stated in the original german documentation.

 

[Walter Ego]

Sometimes, I miss David Cole...

Ever wonder if he staged his own blackmailing?

Ah, Jewish Holocaust denier David Cole. (Yes, I said a Jewish Holocaust denier. Cole's parentage is Jewish on both sides.) Here he is on the Phil Donahue Show in 1994.


Obnoxious little putz, wasn't he? Michael Shermer who was on that Donahue episode with Cole wrote about him later in this book (starting on page 200) and again in his book about Holocaust denial, Denying History.

Perversity and contrariness probably wasn't Cole's sole motivation but that played obviously a big part. Cole didn't just dabble in Holocaust denial. He was on the board of the Institute for Historical Review and went to Auschwitz to make a denier-financed video "debunking" the gas chambers.

I haven't read anywhere that Cole was ever blackmailed. Shermer indicates that his leaving active Holocaust denial may have been the result of a death threat from a JDL activist.

 

[dafydd]

I think you should talk to Dr Terry, he knows my background and training. When I said Wroclaw or his CODOH friend was scientifically illiterate I am qualified to make that judgement.

I am not saying you wouldn't be able to find someone who was scientifically trained who would be prepared to try and defend the cyanide nonsense, but at least when you debated with this person the discussion would be intelligent. But when you have to debate this with people who clearly know nothing about chemistry and yet come out with blanket assertions and refuse to accept basic facts - that is different.

Since you don't seem to have specialist knowledge about anything dafydd, it is not something you will have experienced.

Troll away petite lapin. Nobody believes a word you say.

 

[Wroclaw]

What Dr Green is saying here is that gassings and ventilation could have worked in the time frames specified by the eyewitnesses - IF THE ZYKLON B WAS LOWERED INTO THE COLUMNS in a bucket and string type arrangement. So when the gassing time was completed, the still active outgassing pellets could be removed and carried off .....where?

IT DOESN'T MATTER. Provided that the pellets were being lowered into the gas chambers and taken out again into the open air and provided that they'd been in the chamber and outgassing for long enough, they could prance around the camp all day long with the pellets and not risk hurting themselves or anyone else.

Tell us all, LGR: From where does the "narrative" say that the Zyklon was introduced into the gas chambers?

1. In Krema II and III this would (if you ignore the fact they were bakeries) have been technically possible - BUT NO ONE EVER DESCRIBED SUCH A PROCEDURE.

It doesn't matter. What matters is whether anyone described a procedure that was qualitatively different.

2. In Krema IV and V (OK, really weaving mills) this was not even possible - once the pellets were thrown in, they would have to lie on the floor until completely outgassed (more than an hour).

No, not completely outgassed, but certainly longer than in Krema II and III.

This would be a problem, were there not three other gas chambers at one time or another operating at Auschwitz. Not only were a full third of the gassed Jews at Auschwitz killed in a single chamber (Krema II), but the remaining two-thirds were killed spread out over four other gas chambers over a three-year period. This certainly allows for Kremas IV and V to operate at a slower rate than Kremas II and III and still manage to work as alleged within the overall system.

All of this, by the way, assuming that the SS would have cared at all about the SK's safety during the process. They wouldn't want them falling unconscious while removing bodies certainly, but if they coughed that wouldn't bother the SS much at all, would it?

With a maximum of chutzpah, Dr Green after having invented a procedure whereby partially degassed pellets were removed, then uses this to decrease the ventilation time - although even here he cheats by using a false ventilation fan capacity about 50% greater than what is stated in the original german documentation.

Your word isn't worth anything, LGR. You should cite documents.

 

[Wroclaw]

Last question, LGR: Were the gas chambers in Kremas IV and V said to be above ground or below ground?

Bear in mind when answering that we actually have a photo taken from inside one of those two buildings.

 

[Wroclaw]

More self-congratulatory from the collegiate world's biggest loser:

http://codoh.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6450&sid=dc956c0a960590196cc6e4dbe52653c0

 

[little grey rabbit]

Last question, LGR: Were the gas chambers in Kremas IV and V said to be above ground or below ground?

Bear in mind when answering that we actually have a photo taken from inside one of those two buildings.

Bear in mind that I know vastly more about the documentation and layout and physical state of these buildings than you do. If you have a point, make it directly.

The narrative claims Zyklon B was poured in through little shuttered windows in the side. So unless it was thrown in inside a mesh can on a piece of string, there was no way to retrieve the partially de-gassed pellets and a gassing operation would have to wait until all pellets had degassed or nearly so, before attempting ventilation.

In Krema II and III there was the potential to remove partially degassed pellets, but no one actually mentions this. And that potential would only exist if the mesh was very fine and manuals for use of Zyklon B stated it should be spread thinly out along the floor for quick degassing - and its difficult to see how this "Kula columns" could have achieved that.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

I think you should talk to Dr Terry, he knows my background and training. When I said Wroclaw or his CODOH friend was scientifically illiterate I am qualified to make that judgement.

My interest in the subject came about after I was expelled from a History Honours course run by a University in the city of Melbourne after presenting some material criticising some of the more wild claims in the literature several years ago.
http://littlegreyrabbit.wordpress.com/about/

So you didn't graduate with a B.Arts with a major in history?

 

[little grey rabbit]

My interest in the subject came about after I was expelled from a History Honours course run by a University in the city of Melbourne after presenting some material criticising some of the more wild claims in the literature several years ago.
http://littlegreyrabbit.wordpress.com/about/

So you didn't graduate with a B.Arts with a major in history?

LOL, I just like to try and get people talking. Did you know my late Aunt, Auntie Anke went to school with Hoess daughters? Apparently they were very bad losers on the tennis court. I should add however that in Australia you obtain a BA in history (or you can) and not complete Honours.

Dr Terry has done some extensive digging into my background and could probably supply you with a complete resume if you wanted. Lord knows I have sent enough of them around.

 

[Wroclaw]

Bear in mind that I know vastly more about the documentation and layout and physical state of these buildings than you do. If you have a point, make it directly.

You amuse me.

You spend days into weeks with your nonsense about Eichmann's cremation and you demand a direct point from me? You'll pardon me if I ask you to bite me.

The narrative claims Zyklon B was poured in through little shuttered windows in the side. So unless it was thrown in inside a mesh can on a piece of string, there was no way to retrieve the partially de-gassed pellets and a gassing operation would have to wait until all pellets had degassed or nearly so, before attempting ventilation.

Well, since you didn't tell the home audience that Kremas IV and V were above ground, I'll mention that now. They were above ground.

So picture opening doors to open air rather than requiring ventilation. Put gas masks on the SK.

I know that you already have the picture, LGR, but I hope the readers have got it now also.

In Krema II and III there was the potential to remove partially degassed pellets, but no one actually mentions this.

And absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

And that potential would only exist if the mesh was very fine and manuals for use of Zyklon B stated it should be spread thinly out along the floor for quick degassing - and its difficult to see how this "Kula columns" could have achieved that.

That's quite clever, what you're doing. I ask a specific question about Kremas IV and V and you answer by repeating claims already made about Kremas II and III — claims that, by the way, given the info provided by Green about the conditions in those Kremas relative to OSHA standards, seem irrelevant and that require you to call a Ph.D. in physical chemistry from Stanford University a liar.

Which is rather like the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[little grey rabbit]

Well, since you didn't tell the home audience that Kremas IV and V were above ground, I'll mention that now. They were above ground.

Well spotted. Actually you can read my opinion of Krema IV and V here
http://littlegreyrabbit.wordpress.c...mill-of-birkenau-converted-to-krema-iv-and-v/

So picture opening doors to open air rather than requiring ventilation. Put gas masks on the SK.

I know that you already have the picture, LGR, but I hope the readers have got it now also.

Except that has nothing to do with issue of outgassing.

[As much as I hate to encourage your bait and switch, you can see a blueprint here http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/images/k4-blueprint.jpg and at least one of those gas chambers doesn't even have an exterior door - but stupid design flaws like that won't make any difference to you]

The issue was out-gassing - Richard Green concedes that it takes over an hour for the pellets to outgas, which would make it hazardous to enter the gas chamber despite ventilation because they are still releasing poison gas. He got around this by INVENTING a protocol where by Zyklon B that was still out-gassing was removed by pulling up the [fictional] Kula column. There is no description of this happening - but it couldn't happen in anycase in Krema IV and V. In Krema IV and V highly lethal Zyklon B pellets would be outgassing for over an hour, hence you can't start ventilating the chamber until that time is up.

Is it so difficult?

That's quite clever, what you're doing. I ask a specific question about Kremas IV and V and you answer by repeating claims already made about Kremas II and III — claims that, by the way, given the info provided by Green about the conditions in those Kremas relative to OSHA standards, seem irrelevant and that require you to call a Ph.D. in physical chemistry from Stanford University a liar.
.

Well, I didn't exactly call him a liar, just said he was disingenuous. He did use the wrong ventilation fan, but that was the fault of others not him. He also invented a procedure to make his numbers work out - a procedure that could not have been used in Krema IV and V in anycase.

Given Krema II and III were in fact bakeries it is all beside the point.

 

[Saggy]

The issue was out-gassing - Richard Green concedes that it takes over an hour for the pellets to outgas,

Good post, but, like much of revisionism, it is way overkill. The idea that the Nazis would use pellets which take an hour to outgas at what, 70 deg. F, and longer at colder temperatures, and with a warning scent no less, is absurd on its face.

 

[dafydd]

Well spotted. Actually you can read my opinion of Krema IV and V here
http://littlegreyrabbit.wordpress.c...mill-of-birkenau-converted-to-krema-iv-and-v/



Except that has nothing to do with issue of outgassing.

[As much as I hate to encourage your bait and switch, you can see a blueprint here http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/images/k4-blueprint.jpg and at least one of those gas chambers doesn't even have an exterior door - but stupid design flaws like that won't make any difference to you]

The issue was out-gassing - Richard Green concedes that it takes over an hour for the pellets to outgas, which would make it hazardous to enter the gas chamber despite ventilation because they are still releasing poison gas. He got around this by INVENTING a protocol where by Zyklon B that was still out-gassing was removed by pulling up the [fictional] Kula column. There is no description of this happening - but it couldn't happen in anycase in Krema IV and V. In Krema IV and V highly lethal Zyklon B pellets would be outgassing for over an hour, hence you can't start ventilating the chamber until that time is up.

Is it so difficult?



Well, I didn't exactly call him a liar, just said he was disingenuous. He did use the wrong ventilation fan, but that was the fault of others not him. He also invented a procedure to make his numbers work out - a procedure that could not have been used in Krema IV and V in anycase.

Given Krema II and III were in fact bakeries it is all beside the point.

Lol,I can just see those SS officers in baker's hats lovingly baking away for the inmates. The Holocaust happened,no amount of crap that you post here will ever change that. The history is there for all to see. Jew hating Hitler huggers like you are in a tiny,tiny minority.

 

[Wroclaw]

[As much as I hate to encourage your bait and switch, you can see a blueprint here http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/images/k4-blueprint.jpg and at least one of those gas chambers doesn't even have an exterior door - but stupid design flaws like that won't make any difference to you]

If you want to discuss the layout, you should post a larger picture.

In the meantime, at least one of those gas chambers DID have an exterior door, now, didn't it? And what did the other have? Was it a ventilation system? Isn't there an order for that? From Krema IV?

The issue was out-gassing - Richard Green concedes that it takes over an hour for the pellets to outgas, which would make it hazardous to enter the gas chamber despite ventilation because they are still releasing poison gas.

Be more specific about which gas chambers. Some had ventilation; some didn't. Some had outside doors; some did not. Some had introduction columns; some did not. All these factors would affect outgassing times, although not the absolute outgassing of Zyklon-B per se.

All that, with no ventilation and no outside doors and no columns, the SK could wear gas masks. That would make it possible for them to remove bodies while the Zyklon-B was still outgassing. They could change the filters in the masks, which Green, in fact, mentions they might have done.

He got around this by INVENTING a protocol where by Zyklon B that was still out-gassing was removed by pulling up the [fictional] Kula column. There is no description of this happening

DOESN'T MATTER.

- but it couldn't happen in anycase in Krema IV and V. In Krema IV and V highly lethal Zyklon B pellets would be outgassing for over an hour, hence you can't start ventilating the chamber until that time is up.

See above.

Is it so difficult?

Indeed, is it?

Well, I didn't exactly call him a liar, just said he was disingenuous. He did use the wrong ventilation fan, but that was the fault of others not him. He also invented a procedure to make his numbers work out - a procedure that could not have been used in Krema IV and V in anycase.

See above.

Given Krema II and III were in fact bakeries it is all beside the point.

I won't even justify that idiocy...

 

[Wroclaw]

Good post, but, like much of revisionism, it is way overkill. The idea that the Nazis would use pellets which take an hour to outgas at what, 70 deg. F, and longer at colder temperatures, and with a warning scent no less, is absurd on its face.

You're aware, are you not, that the warning scent was removed, right?

Of course you aren't.

 

[floghammer]

Well spotted. Actually you can read my opinion of Krema IV and V here
http://littlegreyrabbit.wordpress.c...mill-of-birkenau-converted-to-krema-iv-and-v/



Except that has nothing to do with issue of outgassing.

[As much as I hate to encourage your bait and switch, you can see a blueprint here http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/images/k4-blueprint.jpg and at least one of those gas chambers doesn't even have an exterior door - but stupid design flaws like that won't make any difference to you]

The issue was out-gassing - Richard Green concedes that it takes over an hour for the pellets to outgas, which would make it hazardous to enter the gas chamber despite ventilation because they are still releasing poison gas. He got around this by INVENTING a protocol where by Zyklon B that was still out-gassing was removed by pulling up the [fictional] Kula column. There is no description of this happening - but it couldn't happen in anycase in Krema IV and V. In Krema IV and V highly lethal Zyklon B pellets would be outgassing for over an hour, hence you can't start ventilating the chamber until that time is up.

Is it so difficult?

LGR has a good point with the outgassing. Are there any survivors who have addressed the problem of disposing of the pellets once the gas was released?