Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[Nick Terry]

Let's look at the order Nick:

http://www.codoh.com/gcgv/gcstopgas.html


Can you tell me how you get gassing from this?

Easy.

Becher uses the word Vernichtung which in the English is translated as liquidation but can also be translated as annihilation or extermination. What is henceforth forbidden, according to the testimony, is the Vernichtung of the Jews.

It is self-evident that Vernichtung, liquidation, annihilation, extermination are the abstract terms which would encompass any more concrete method of carrying out killings.

The only place where the Vernichtung of Jews was continuing at the time of the order was Auschwitz, by gas. And it stopped, there.

Now I don't know about you, but most of us are quite capable of reasoning from the general (extermination) to the particular (gassing) and are not literalist retards.

And I don't know about you, but most of us are quite capable of correlating a general directive (stop exterminating the Jews) to events at a particular site (gassing stopped at Auschwitz).

Unless, you know, you have some other evidence that gassing stopped at Auschwitz for some other reason.

I should add that Becher is using Vernichtung in a postwar affidavit. Other Nazis spoke similarly after the war, using more abstract terms to describe mass killings whether by shootings or gas, but they also spoke about shootings and gassings, using the abstract and concrete terms interchangeably during interrogations and cross-examinations. It would be a grotesque fallacy to assume that Nazis automatically would reach to the most concrete term.

 

[Chaos]

Your style of 'debate' displayed on this forum is unbelievable, disgraceful, for anyone claiming to be a scholar or even a reasonable person.

You´re projecting again. Nick has already forgotten more about being a scholar and a reasonable person than you, kageki, Dogzilla and 9/11 Investigator taken together will ever understand.

Your endless insults are appropriate only for Zionists and juveniles.

How about YOUR endless lying, namecalling and insults are suitable only for anti-semites, Nazi fanboys and Hitler worshippers?

It is unthinkable for a true academic. Name one real academic who resorts to your sort of gutter language and idiotic name calling in any forum, anywhere.

Name one Holocaust denying pseudoacademic scumbag anywhere who doesn´t.

Perhaps some of the readers of this forum are not academics, or students, they could easily get the mistaken idea that university professors are no more mannered and professional than barroom drunks from reading your posts. You are an embarrassment to higher education in Britain, is it? And all in the service of the Zionists. Show some respect for yourself, if not the rest of us !

Do you even begin to realize how ridiculous a rant about embarassment or manner or respect sounds, coming from you of all people?

 

[kageki]

Easy.

Becher uses the word Vernichtung which in the English is translated as liquidation but can also be translated as annihilation or extermination. What is henceforth forbidden, according to the testimony, is the Vernichtung of the Jews.

It is self-evident that Vernichtung, liquidation, annihilation, extermination are the abstract terms which would encompass any more concrete method of carrying out killings.

The only place where the Vernichtung of Jews was continuing at the time of the order was Auschwitz, by gas. And it stopped, there.

Now I don't know about you, but most of us are quite capable of reasoning from the general (extermination) to the particular (gassing) and are not literalist retards.

And I don't know about you, but most of us are quite capable of correlating a general directive (stop exterminating the Jews) to events at a particular site (gassing stopped at Auschwitz).

Unless, you know, you have some other evidence that gassing stopped at Auschwitz for some other reason.

I should add that Becher is using Vernichtung in a postwar affidavit. Other Nazis spoke similarly after the war, using more abstract terms to describe mass killings whether by shootings or gas, but they also spoke about shootings and gassings, using the abstract and concrete terms interchangeably during interrogations and cross-examinations. It would be a grotesque fallacy to assume that Nazis automatically would reach to the most concrete term.

Just where are you getting gassings from? Testimonies from people like Hoess at the trial?

Here is a little wiki article that came up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extermination_through_labor

Extermination through labor[1] (German: Vernichtung durch Arbeit) is a principle that guided the operation of the Nazi concentration camp system, defined as the willful or accepted killing of forced laborers or prisoners through excessive heavy labor and inadequate care.

From Wannsee:

http://www.prorev.com/wannsee.htm

Under proper guidance, in the course of the final solution the Jews are to be allocated for appropriate labor in the East. Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas for work on roads, in the course of which action doubtless a large portion will be eliminated by natural causes.
The possible final remnant will, since it will undoubtedly consist of the most resistant portion, have to be treated accordingly, because it is the product of natural selection and would, if released, act as a the seed of a new Jewish revival (see the experience of history.)

So your gassing claims come from testimonies during the trial after the war? This concept of extermination through labor seems consistent and makes sense since Auschwitz was a labor camp. Not that I agree with it, but no gas chambers yet.

 

[pooshoodog]

Just where are you getting gassings from? Testimonies from people like Hoess at the trial?

Here is a little wiki article that came up:

From Wannsee:


So your gassing claims come from testimonies during the trial after the war? This concept of extermination through labor seems consistent and makes sense since Auschwitz was a labor camp. Not that I agree with it, but no gas chambers yet.

This is too much. Are you proposing that a regime that created a policy
of "extermination through labor" would also be caring for the children
and elderly relatives of those being exterminated through labor?
And would you also propose that the pseudo Darwinian philosophy
of the Nazis would condone keeping alive the weak, sick and elderly
while killing only the strong?

And what about the "most resistant," to be "treated accordingly."
As if "treated accordingly" needed to be defined, the court asked
Eichmann to do so. He answered, "killed, killed." He repeated it twice
as if anticipating the future morons who would deny the obvious.

 

[Wroclaw]

Just caught this:

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/new-life-from-old-archives-1.349971

Interesting. Not sure how widely this was reported outside Israel.

 

[kageki]

This is too much. Are you proposing that a regime that created a policy
of "extermination through labor" would also be caring for the children
and elderly relatives of those being exterminated through labor?
And would you also propose that the pseudo Darwinian philosophy
of the Nazis would condone keeping alive the weak, sick and elderly
while killing only the strong?

And what about the "most resistant," to be "treated accordingly."
As if "treated accordingly" needed to be defined, the court asked
Eichmann to do so. He answered, "killed, killed." He repeated it twice
as if anticipating the future morons who would deny the obvious.

Well there were children that survived Auschwitz and the Himmler order does say in addition to care for the weak and sick.

Deny what exactly? I'm not hearing gas chambers anywhere.

I don't see how it can be "systematic" either because the Wannsee minutes clearly talk primarily about emigrations and for the "elderly" 65 years and up to be sent to old-age ghettos.

So am I understanding it right that the claim that the Himmler order is for gassings is based on retroactively applying evidence from the trial after the war? I still don't see how one can categorically claim the Himmler order was referring to gassings.

 

[kageki]

Just caught this:

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/new-life-from-old-archives-1.349971

Interesting. Not sure how widely this was reported outside Israel.

That is interesting and yet still no gas chambers. No explanation of how or even who murdered them.

The story of sterilization was interesting. The Wannsee conference talked about that too.

 

[Wroclaw]

That is interesting and yet still no gas chambers. No explanation of how or even who murdered them.

Yeah, there were no gas chambers in Ukraine.

Do you have even a base level knowledge of basic Holocaust historiography? It seems like you don't. It also seems like you're unable to understand argument by analogy and basic logic.

Ergo, CODOH is a fitting place for you.

The story of sterilization was interesting. The Wannsee conference talked about that too.

{Sigh}

Yes, the Wannsee conference entailed a discussion of sterilization.

So I assume you believe the Wannsee Protocol is a genuine document. There's this part:

Unter entsprechender Leitung sollen im Zuge der Endlösung die Juden in geeigneter Weise im Osten zum Arbeitseinsatz kommen. In großen Arbeitskolonnen, unter Trennung der Geschlechter, werden die arbeitsfähigen Juden straßenbauend in diese Gebiete geführt, wobei zweifellos ein Großteil durch natürliche Verminderung ausfallen wird.

I assume we agree that this section refers to extermination through labor.

Continuing:

Der allfällig endlich verbleibende Restbestand wird, da es sich bei diesem zweifellos um den widerstandsfähigsten Teil handelt, entsprechend behandelt werden müssen, da dieser, eine natürliche Auslese darstellend, bei Freilassung als Keimzelle eines neuen jüdischen Aufbaues anzusprechen ist. (Siehe die Erfahrung der Geschichte.)

There's this term used above, i.e., entsprechend behandelt. I think we would again both agree that this term refers to them being murdered, no?

Or would you maintain the term refers to sterilization? Because if it refers to sterilization, then why not just use the same term used further down in the same document, i.e., Sterilisierung?

So I think it's fair to assume that the term entsprechend behandelt means murder.

So why murder people when you can sterilize them? Why are they so concerned with the remnant of Jewish strength being able to repopulate? The sterilizations are being limited to Mischlingen — that's why. The Nazis believed that this way they could get value out of the mixed-race Jews but still make sure the Jewish "race" disappeared.

With full-blooded Jews, other methods had to be applied. I.e., murder, either through labor or through other means.

Now, all that being said, when you have someone like Eichmann testifying that poison gas was used, and he was an attendee at this meeting, then does it really strain credulity that, indeed, poison gas was used, particularly given the other testimony, the documents that refer openly to gassings, and the forensics carried out at these sites?

 

[Wroclaw]

I don't see how it can be "systematic" either because the Wannsee minutes clearly talk primarily about emigrations and for the "elderly" 65 years and up to be sent to old-age ghettos.

See post above. They also very clearly talk about murder.

 

[Wroclaw]

So am I understanding it right that the claim that the Himmler order is for gassings is based on retroactively applying evidence from the trial after the war? I still don't see how one can categorically claim the Himmler order was referring to gassings.

So your contention is that Jews were killed in the camp, just not by gas?

 

[Nick Terry]

Your style of 'debate' displayed on this forum is unbelievable, disgraceful, for anyone claiming to be a scholar or even a reasonable person. Your endless insults are appropriate only for Zionists and juveniles. It is unthinkable for a true academic. Name one real academic who resorts to your sort of gutter language and idiotic name calling in any forum, anywhere. Perhaps some of the readers of this forum are not academics, or students, they could easily get the mistaken idea that university professors are no more mannered and professional than barroom drunks from reading your posts. You are an embarrassment to higher education in Britain, is it? And all in the service of the Zionists. Show some respect for yourself, if not the rest of us !

OK, let's see. Gutter language?

Originally Posted by Nick Terry
......... Really, if you don't get this, then you are unfit to be discussing anything past yesterday lunchtime.

Nope.

............... because the deniers registered there are all trolls, none of whom are interested in discussing the subject properly

Nope, not gutter language.

the academic version would be, 'many deniers online appear to espouse their beliefs purely in order to provoke, and are regarded by other users of the internet as 'trolls' as a result'.

this assertion would certainly be true of RODOH.

...............because you'll have exposed yourself as a sleazebag incapable of mastering the basic niceties and politenesses of genuine debate.

Camille Paglia and other full professors have uttered far worse.

................., all the while engaging in hilariously comic back-slapping and doing victory dances,

Nope, not gutter language.

oblivious to the fact that nobody gives a flying monkey's what a handful of loons might believe on a sparsely populated internet forum.

this isn't gutter language either. It is simply colloquially phrased, as befits the venue.

.......Whining about process and venue just makes you look like a dork, so stfu already and get on with it.

As I said, Camille Paglia and other full professors have uttered far worse.

Here's Professor Richard Dawkins being naughty
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOyP44Xu5FA

Anyway, let's note the irony in Saggy's comment here

It is unthinkable for a true academic.

before he starts arguing that Dawkins, Paglia and others aren't 'true academics'.

 

[Saggy]

As I said, Camille Paglia and other full professors have uttered far worse.

Everyone has uttered far worse, but you have yet to produce one example of an academic, not even the media whores you've mentioned, who has put it in print in a public forum in even one instance, much less as you do, over and over.

Edited by LashL: 

Removed breach.

The Zionists have no shame, but the shabbas goys ..... are beyond belief.

 

[Wroclaw]

Everyone has uttered far worse, but you have yet to produce one example of an academic, not even the media whores you've mentioned, who has put it in print in a public forum in even one instance, much less as you do, over and over.

Edited by LashL: 

Removed breach.

The Zionists have no shame, but the shabbas goys ..... are beyond belief.

Saggy, please tell us all what "shabbas goy" means?

 

[Walter Ego]

Saggy, please tell us all what "shabbas goy" means?

I think he means Jew Lover or Zionist enabler (i.e., a gentile who aids or assists Zionists) though, not surprisingly, he got he got the word wrong.

A Shabbat goy, Shabbos goy or Shabbes goy (Yiddish: שבת גוי, shabbos goy Modern Hebrew: גוי של שבת goy shel shabat) is an individual who regularly assists a Jewish individual or organization by performing certain acts on the Biblical Sabbath which are forbidden to Jews within Jewish law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbos_goy

 

[twinstead]

biggots and racists are funny

 

[Nick Terry]

Everyone has uttered far worse, but you have yet to produce one example of an academic, not even the media whores you've mentioned, who has put it in print in a public forum in even one instance, much less as you do, over and over.

Edited by LashL: 

Removed breach.

The Zionists have no shame, but the shabbas goys ..... are beyond belief.

Uh, Saggy, I produced two examples already of academics, in public forums, using insulting language. Richard Dawkins said **** off on camera. How much more public could that be?

Anyway, if you think that academics are polite when dealing with whackadoodles, then clearly you've never read Associate Professor of Biology PZ Myers talking about creationists.

Dangerous idiot with bogus medical advice

In which I have hurt Ken Ham's feelings

wherein the tenured professor of biology, who makes it his business to comment publicly on a blog, says apropos a noted creationist, i.e. the exact equivalent of a Holocaust denier intellectually, the following:

Oh, dear. Earlier, I wrote about Ken Ham's visit to the Pentagon, a soul-shuddering thought if ever there was one, and it seems Ken has read it. He has replied with a blog entry titled Biology Professor Calls Me “Wackaloon”. Ken, Ken, Ken. You act shocked at the thought that one guy publicly stated that you were Mr Flaming Nutbar, but you shouldn't be. Millions of people, including some of the most knowledgeable biologists in the world, think just about every day that you are an airhead, an ass, a birdbrain, a blockhead, a bonehead, a boob, a bozo, a charlatan, a cheat, a chowderhead, a chump, a clod, a con artist, a crackpot, a crank, a crazy, a cretin, a dimwit, a dingbat, a dingleberry, a dipstick, a ditz, a dolt, a doofus, a dork, a dum-dum, a dumb-ass, a dumbo, a dummy, a dunce, a dunderhead, a fake, a fathead, a fraud, a fruitcake, a gonif, a halfwit, an idiot, an ignoramus, an imbecile, a jackass, a jerk, a jughead, a knucklehead, a kook, a lamebrain, a loon, a loony, a lummox, a meatball, a meathead, a moron, a mountebank, a nincompoop, a ninny, a nitwit, a numbnuts, a numbskull, a nut, a nutcase, a peabrain, a pinhead, a racketeer, a sap, a scam artist, a screwball, a sham, a simpleton, a snake oil salesman, a thickhead, a turkey, a twerp, a twit, a wacko, a woodenhead, and much, much worse

Feel free to use the above to play Nick Terry Den Mother Bingo in the future.

 

[dudalb]

biggots and racists are funny

Kageki is really amusing when he whitewashes Imperial Japan aggresions in China and the Pacific. He is downright hilarious when he spouts his Pearl Harbor was an inside Job crap.

 

[dafydd]

biggots and racists are funny

Saggy is one of the funniest. It's a wonder he can still walk,considering the number of times he's shot himself in the foot.

 

[dafydd]

Kageki is really amusing when he whitewashes Imperial Japan aggresions in China and the Pacific. He is downright hilarious when he spouts his Pearl Harbor was an inside Job crap.

We're not allowed to go to Bedlam and laugh at the inmates any more. This will have to do.

 

[dudalb]

We're not allowed to go to Bedlam and laugh at the inmates any more. This will have to do.

Ironically enough, there are some very good exhibits on The Holocuast in what used to be Bedlam...at least in London. The Imperial War Museum is located in what used to be Bethelhem Royal Hospital....the Bedlam insane asylum of fame.