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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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Clayton Moore said:
Once again the Holocaust contingent skulks away. They recant over and over testimony after bloodcurdling testimony yet it seems the German monsters weren't interested in rape.
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Please learn to use the quote function, Clayton, as well as the meaning of to recant. The trouble with the hysteria you've whipped yourself into is that the information you quoted from my post is not from testimony at all. It came from a complaint by the German Foreign Office, a member of which had inspected some eastern camps and filed the report from which the items were taken, that the abuse of prisoners was at odds with their effective deployment as productive laborers.
 
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Wroclaw said:
Rape was less common a German war crime, because of the relatively steep penalties connected to race treason, but it was not unknown. When the victims were not Jewish, in particular, it was probably as common as it was for all other armies during WWII, with the exception of the Soviets after '43 or so, at which point it seems they were carrying out rape pretty much as a matter of policy.

Consider, however, fair-haired and -skinned Jewish and other non-"Aryan" women kept in the Freudenabteilung. Was that not rape, if a more "civilized" form of it?
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It's rather hard to know what Clayton absorbs, as we went over this a few pages back, but here we are again. Odd. I suppose. http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7402025&postcount=4346 He doesn't seem to know much of the history, nor the major sources, which leads to his getting quite bollixed up at times.
 
Wroclaw said:
Rape was less common a German war crime, because of the relatively steep penalties connected to race treason, but it was not unknown. When the victims were not Jewish, in particular, it was probably as common as it was for all other armies during WWII, with the exception of the Soviets after '43 or so, at which point it seems they were carrying out rape pretty much as a matter of policy.

Consider, however, fair-haired and -skinned Jewish and other non-"Aryan" women kept in the Freudenabteilung. Was that not rape, if a more "civilized" form of it?
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What a joke. Make up your mind. So the military sanctions supervised sex and brutal murder but not rape?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_House_of_Dolls

Freudenabteilung
Origins

The origin of Ka-tzetnik's story is not clear. Some say it is based on a diary kept by a young Jewish girl who was captured in Poland when she was fourteen years old and forced into sexual slavery in a Nazi labour camp. However, the diary itself has not been located or verified to exist. Others claim, and the author suggests as much in his later book Shivitti, that it is based on the actual history of Ka-Tzetnik's younger sister (The House of Dolls is about the sister of Ka-Tzetnik's protagonist, Harry Preleshnik). However, Ka-Tzetnik didn't have a sister in real life.
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Do the liars ever stop lying?
 
LemmyCaution said:
In point of fact, his post rubbished your logistics objections.
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The Holohoax is more than some isolation of conjured up train rides.



Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post
It's just a matter of connecting the proliferation of dots/events/killings/camp populations/work performed by the camp(s) labor/staging/supplies/guard&support to inmate ratios/methods of moving inmates between camps etc. etc.

Start with the numbers of all the German forces and the support population and their location each year.

Start with the numbers of all the eventual internees and supposed victims and their location each year.

Start with the allocations of resources their recipients each year.

Once you start filling in details the dots will not connect.

And the Holohoax will collapse kerplunk.
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To model something you start with the totals and break them down.

You don't talk about transportation of troops to the Russian front as a guideline to calculate moving 6 million civilians.
 
Clayton Moore said:
The Holohoax is more than some isolation of conjured up train rides.



Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post


To model something you start with the totals and break them down.

You don't talk about transportation of troops to the Russian front as a guideline to calculate moving 6 million civilians.
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Then you show us how it should be done - or is this just straight denial?
 
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Rincewind said:
Actually, I just found information that in WWI the French used wagons labelled 40 Hommes/8 Chevals - 40 men or 8 horses....
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If I told you we have one of those in our local town (Kansas) would you believe me?
 
Clayton Moore said:
The Holohoax is more than some isolation of conjured up train rides.

Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post

To model something you start with the totals and break them down.

You don't talk about transportation of troops to the Russian front as a guideline to calculate moving 6 million civilians.
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This is something I wrote in 2004 in a published article:

"In April 1942, 37 transports of Jews amounted to just over 1 percent of 3,523 special trains and upwards of 30,000 scheduled trains"

The source is a report by the state secretary for transport (Der Beauftragte der Vierjahresplan, Geschaeftsgruppe Verkehr, Taetigkeitsbericht fuer April 1942, May 18 1942, Bundesarchiv Berlin R26 IV/47)

Those were the transports from Germany, Austria and the Czech Protectorate, and that's how little the deportation affected railway resources in Germany. 10s of 1000s of trains - every month.

France, Slovakia, Hungary, Poland - they all had their own railways just like Germany. That's how people got around in those days. There were plenty of trains.

You might like also to consider three more facts

1) The Nazis moved around a hell of a lot of civilian labourers, prisoners of war and evacuees. Here is a short guide on Wikipedia to the forced labour program which meant there were 7 million foreign workers inside Germany by 1944. Virtually all came by train over the same kind of distances, and all had to be housed somewhere, many were housed in camps in every German town and city.

2) The Nazis didn't have to move that many Jews. More than 2 million were killed where they lived. Only 3 million were actually deported, and most were deported inside Poland, and didn't have very far to go. Warsaw to Treblinka is hardly any distance at all.

3) To keep someone alive for a year, you need several times their bodyweight to feed them. Deporting someone to be exterminated would actually save on transportation costs, versus keeping them alive.
 
Clayton Moore said:
The Holohoax is more than some isolation of conjured up train rides.



Originally Posted by Clayton Moore View Post


To model something you start with the totals and break them down.

You don't talk about transportation of troops to the Russian front as a guideline to calculate moving 6 million civilians.
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So are you denying that Jews were deported from the Reich, including Austria and the Protectorate; from Western Europe; from the General-Gouvernement (e.g., Lodz, Warsaw, Lublin, and other locations large and small); Hungary; Slovakia; Greece; and other parts of Nazi occupied Europe?

We've already seen that, to run 3 death camps, the Nazis had to divert fewer personnel than the number of soldiers they executed in a year for violations of military rules--fewer than 500 German SS, Ukrainians, and ethnic Germans. Auschwitz-Birkenau was run by something like 2000 people--throwing in that total we are still under the number of military executions for 1943. So clearly running the camps where gassings took place wasn't a drain on wartime manpower. So tell us about the deportations of some Jews across Europe and many, many others to the death camp down the road.
 
Clayton Moore said:
You don't talk about transportation of troops to the Russian front as a guideline to calculate moving 6 million civilians.
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ROFL, that's just sad, Clayton. You just got owned like a prison @#$%&. :D

Dittos on the kudos for your work, Rincewind. Very well done indeed.
 
Clayton - thank you for your helpful comments.

I have a few comments about your assessment that you can’t compare moving an army with moving civilians.

I’m curious as to how you think I came up with the numbers - I started with totals, and broke them down. Oh, look - that’s exactly how you said it should be done! Thank you for your agreement!

Well, I guess that moving an army is hugely more complex that a mass of civilians - you’ve got a vast amount of equipment to load/unload of course. A couple of uncaring guards with guns could force a bunch of civilians into a wagon in a few minutes, but it takes a lot longer to load a tank onto an open wagon - especially as you don’t want to damage it. The Wehrmacht had around 3,500 tanks for Barbarossa. Also many thousands of guns, trucks, etc.

So - yes, you’re correct - it’s way more difficult to move an army than a load of civilians. Though I’m at a loss as to how this helps your argument.

My thanks to Nick for showing that Deutsche Reichsbahn was operating around 33,000 trains per month. Even the 150-160 monthly trains required by the Wehrmacht for the move to the Soviet border wasn’t a big issue.

Thinking about food and drink for a minute - again, the Wehrmacht would want to ensure that all of its troops were well-fed. However, the Jews were ordered to take 3-days of food with them, and given that the vast majority were killed on arrival at such destinations as Treblinka the SS hardly had to worry about feeding them. Astonishingly, the victims also had to pay for the journey.

There are no end of reports showing that the inmates of work camps were kept on starvation rations. Given that the Nazis hated and despised the “Untermensch”, it’s hardly surprising that they treated them appallingly. However, especially after the early part of the invasion of the Soviet Union, the Nazis inherited a huge population, why should they give a second thought to the horrendous death rates? - after all, there were plenty more workers available.

My reading about the Third Reich suggests that the recruitment of SS troops did not include such talents as management, manufacturing or personnel skills. No - the concentration camp guards loathed their charges, and brutal treatment became a norm. They weren’t interested in the slightest about treating the workers well so that they would produce more.

Clayton - I’m curious. If a couple of armed SS wanted to force you out of your home, and pack you onto a train, what would you do?
 
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