Merged General Holocaust denial discussion Part IV

[Nessie]

Thanks for that. By mobile killings, is that the Einsatzgruppen?

 

[Nick Terry]

Thanks for that. By mobile killings, is that the Einsatzgruppen?

And Order Police, Wehrmacht, Waffen-SS, plus collaborator police. The 2 million figure would also include mass shootings carried out by the Romanian Army and police, plus pogroms.

The Einsatzgruppen in the strict sense claimed only 633,000 victims, as per the Korherr report, which fits with the earlier Einsatzgruppen reports, but these show for example that Einsatzgruppe A didn't claim the Rumbula massacres outside Riga in 1941; their reports mentioned Rumbula but the credit for the bodycount was given to Jeckeln (HSSPF Ostland).

One problem with Hilberg's conception of mobile killings is that he doesn't really factor in Poland to his estimate of this figure, but presents his estimate at the end of his chapter on the USSR. But there were extensive mass shootings by units that can be considered 'mobile', because they moved from town to town, such as the famous Police Battalion 101 in the Lublin district, across both western and eastern Poland. So many ghetto and camp deaths as counted by Hilberg were actually shooting deaths.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Thanks for that. By mobile killings, is that the Einsatzgruppen?

Einsatzgruppen + Waffen SS, troops of the HSSPFs, police battalions, Wehrmacht, local collaborators like Shaulists in Lithuania and Arajs commando in Latvia, etc (also Romanian military units); the shorthand is "Einsatzgruppen" but the reality is a more expansive list of units perpetrating these execution actions.

 

[Nessie]

Thanks. I was not aware that from Korherr;

"In addition there are the figures of the Main Reich Security Office for the evacuation of the Jews from the Russian territories including the formerly Baltic countries since the beginning of the Eastern campaign - 633, 300"

was with reference to mobile killings. I just used it to question denier claims of resettlement in the Russian east, when Korherr was claiming Jews had been evacuated from the area.

 

[dudalb]

The most recent scholarship is the percentage of victims of the Holocaust who were killed outside the extermination camps is much greater then originally thought;probably around a Million and a half died at the hands of "Mobile" killing units.

 

[Nick Terry]

Thanks. I was not aware that from Korherr;

"In addition there are the figures of the Main Reich Security Office for the evacuation of the Jews from the Russian territories including the formerly Baltic countries since the beginning of the Eastern campaign - 633, 300"

was with reference to mobile killings. I just used it to question denier claims of resettlement in the Russian east, when Korherr was claiming Jews had been evacuated from the area.

Linking the 633,000 figure with the Einsatzgruppen is standard, e.g. in Hilberg 2003, pp.1315-6.

There were no deportations to camps from the 'Russian territories', which meant the Ostministerium + military administration zones, and the two Korherr reports, long and short, mention the Bialystok and Galicia districts elsewhere. Deportations in 1942 from the Bialystok and Galicia districts would not have added up to 633,000 anyway, and it would have been strange if the RSHA ignored the USSR entirely.

The Korherr report states that the figure for the Russian territories is incomplete, which means that HSSPF-claimed bodycounts are not included, nor are the Kommandostab RFSS actions of e.g. the SS-Cavalry Brigade; HSSPFs like Jeckeln and Pruetzmann reported directly to Himmler. Thus Meldung 51, submitted by HSSPF Ukraine, with 361,000 Jews reported as executed, is not in the 633,000 figure.

Korherr doesn't claim to have been given access to the Einsatzgruppen reports, which were a mess statistically. Gestapo Mueller had to order the Einsatzgruppen in July 1942 to keep precise count of executions along standardised lines.

 

[Nick Terry]

The most recent scholarship is the percentage of victims of the Holocaust who were killed outside the extermination camps is much greater then originally thought;probably around a Million and a half died at the hands of "Mobile" killing units.

The scholarship isn't that recent, since it's been generally understood in the field for 25 years or so, and the number killed in mass shootings is recognised as more than 2 million across Poland, the USSR and Serbia.

 

[ShamelessGit]

I am a Holocaust Denier

I didn't know that there was a rule that you had to make 15 posts before you could put links in your posts when I joined. When I joined, I really just wanted to make a ruckus on the skeptic forum by posting this thread. Anyway, I've made 15 posts, so now I can finally have my fun. Here it is.

I will prove by contradiction that the official Holocaust story is false.

Claim: Hitler came up with the idea of holocausting 6 million Jews
Assumption: Causes precede effects
Assumption: This article exists https://www.radioislam.org/islam/english/revision/sixmillion/1936-Holocaust-Jews-Want-Palestine.gif
Assumption: The Nazis started murdering Jews in 1941

The article from assumption 2 shows that the allied media had knowledge of the holocaust before Hitler did, and together with assumption 1, that proves that Hitler is not the cause of the holocaust. Therefore, the mainstream story about the holocaust is false.

Personally, before I found these articles, I got to the point where I saw that somebody must be lying about the holocaust. Either people like David Irving, David Cole, or Fred Leuchter were lying, or the mainstream news media were lying about them lying. The evidence that they were presenting was too straightforward to be misinterpreted if they were telling the truth. It became much easier for me to believe the holocaust deniers after I saw proof that the mainstream media had a long history of lying about the holocaust.

What I presented above is already sufficient proof, but I will offer more:

Other occurrences of holocausts of 6 million Jews in major newspapers prior to WW2. You can still find these articles in the archives of the New York archives. Go check yourself if you don’t believe me. http://balder.org/judea/Six-Million...000,000-Before-The-Nuremberg-Trials-Began.php

Testimonies of Jews about swimming pools, movie theaters, and soccer fields at Auschwitz. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtlPlZGvgY0

Fake Holocaust photos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8djIHQS4kyQ

An interesting coincidence:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/342042360194269184/378322596955160576/image.jpg

Historical records of populations:
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8xFQdkdU...IACLcB/s1600/Jewish+Populaion+Figures+002.JPG

The Red Crosse's record of holocaust victims:
http://truedemocracyparty.net/wp-content/uploads/auschwitz.jpg

Hitler’s multicultural army:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUoOJEidm2o



Modern evidence showing that the media is controlled:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhgVbbDBJ24

Really if you pay attention, you should be able to tell that the news media is controlled by yourself. I figured it out on my own several years before I started looking at conspiracy theories online and found out that it was the Jews behind it. I could write several pages about my observations of the media, such as how all of the news sites talk about the same thing at the same time, how they avoid talking about real issues, how the media helps the US government lie about wars, and how one can predict future policy and wars by studying the current propaganda in the news, etc. But it would take a while, and I don’t have the patience for it.

 

[theprestige]

Cool story, bro.

 

[abaddon]

Claim: Hitler came up with the idea of holocausting 6 million Jews

False

Assumption: Causes precede effects

False

Assumption: This article exists https://www.radioislam.org/islam/english/revision/sixmillion/1936-Holocaust-Jews-Want-Palestine.gif

False

Assumption: The Nazis started murdering Jews in 1941

False.

So have you anything to offer that is not false?

 

[lionking]

Yawn. Here we go again.

 

[Ranb]

I will prove by contradiction that the official Holocaust story is false.

Can you prove it without youtube videos?

Claim: Hitler came up with the idea of holocausting 6 million Jews

Does someone else deserve the credit then?

Assumption: Causes precede effects

So?

Assumption: This article exists https://www.radioislam.org/islam/english/revision/sixmillion/1936-Holocaust-Jews-Want-Palestine.gif

So? Hadn't the lower case spelling of the term holocaust been around for a few years to describe the issues the jews were dealing with?

Assumption: The Nazis started murdering Jews in 1941

Who is claiming this?

The article from assumption 2 shows that the allied media had knowledge of the holocaust before Hitler did, and together with assumption 1, that proves that Hitler is not the cause of the holocaust. Therefore, the mainstream story about the holocaust is false.

You would have us believe that Hitler had no idea what was going on in his own country? Surely you are aware that the word "holocaust" is used for other than describing the final solution.

What I presented above is already sufficient proof, but I will offer more:

I think what you have presented sucks, that is a technical term by the way.

Other occurrences of holocausts of 6 million Jews in major newspapers prior to WW2. You can still find these articles in the archives of the New York archives. Go check yourself if you don’t believe me. http://balder.org/judea/Six-Million...000,000-Before-The-Nuremberg-Trials-Began.php

They're a joke if you think they refer to 6M people killed.

An interesting coincidence:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/342042360194269184/378322596955160576/image.jpg

Lacks context.

Historical records of populations:
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8xFQdkdU...IACLcB/s1600/Jewish+Populaion+Figures+002.JPG

Looks fake as the dates were obviously added later after the article was scanned.

The Red Crosse's record of holocaust victims:
http://truedemocracyparty.net/wp-content/uploads/auschwitz.jpg

The only date I see is 1979. What is the origin of this scan and why do you think it is accurate?

Really if you pay attention, you should be able to tell that the news media is controlled by yourself.

Yes I control the media.

I figured it out on my own several years before I started looking at conspiracy theories online and found out that it was the Jews behind it.

Why not join them then? Seems they have a good union.

I could write several pages about my observations of the media, such as how all of the news sites talk about the same thing at the same time, how they avoid talking about real issues, how the media helps the US government lie about wars, and how one can predict future policy and wars by studying the current propaganda in the news, etc. But it would take a while, and I don’t have the patience for it.

Bolding mine.
Then it seems you lack the patience to persuade anyone of anything and you're probably wasting your time here if the above evidence is all you have.

 

[Elagabalus]

... Either people like David Irving, David Cole, or Fred Leuchter were lying,...

They are. Anything else you would like to know?

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Merged with general Holocaust denial thread. While I'm sure there must be many novel aspects of this ever-productive subject to discuss, we appreciate if they are, as a rule, kept in one thread.

Posted By: TubbaBlubba

 

[ShamelessGit]

Daft counter-arguments

I didn't put a whole lot of effort into it, because I was afraid that these were the kinds of answers I'd get.

How do I argue with someone who says that causes don't precede effects?

And it's the official mainstream story that the holocaust started in 1941. It's not hard to find. When you argue against that point, you're arguing against the mainstream position.

And no, these articles aren't jokes. I've read a dozen of them, and they have 6 million used in a variety of contexts, and a few of them actually are about 6 million Jews being killed, specifically in Russia.

I don't see any rebuttals that aren't either bland assertions, such as that holocaust deniers are liars without offering any evidence, or which don't say utterly nonsensical things, such as what I mentioned immediately above.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

The Holocaust is in most but not all academic works taken to refer to the period of state-driven Jewish persecution of 1935-1945. For the mass killing events that began in 1941-42 the term "The Final Solution [to the Jewish Question]" is often used.

 

[fagin]

I didn't put a whole lot of effort into it...

Random words...

You'll have to try harder.

 

[John Jones]

I didn't know that there was a rule that you had to make 15 posts before you could put links in your posts when I joined. [...].

TL;DR

 

[LemmyCaution]

Claim: Hitler came up with the idea of holocausting 6 million Jews

Lost me here: I know of no one making such a claim, certainly not historians who research the Third Reich and the Holocaust.

Assumption: The Nazis started murdering Jews in 1941

Actually, Jews were murdered by National Socialists before 1941. In any case, these murders are not "assumptions" but conclusions drawn from evidence.

the mainstream news media . . . the mainstream media had a long history of lying about the holocaust.

Sorry, we do not know about this history through "the mainstream news media": we know about it by studying the evidence and through research done by historians and other scholars of the period.

The rest of what you post is old hat - long since debunked and explained, especially at Nizkor, HDOT, Holocuast Controversies, and forums like this one. You've posted nothing new and nothing interesting enough to warrant anything more than links to help you, such as, http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I didn't put a whole lot of effort into it

Clearly. You didn't even bother to state the arguments your opponents make accurately. And you simply regurgitated a few familiar HD cliches.

And it's the official mainstream story that the holocaust started in 1941. It's not hard to find.

I have no idea what you mean by "the official mainstream story." Would you be so kind as to show us where the so-called official mainstream story is found and who authorizes such an "official mainstream story." I ask especially because historians like Browning, Longerich, Gerwarth, Gerlach, Bauer, and others continue to debate when the Third Reich opted for a European-wide extermination of Jews - and historians like Cesarani prefer not using the term the Holocaust at all.