Merged General Holocaust denial discussion Part IV

[threadworm]

I am not Jewish and am not a fan of Israel or Bibi. I am not a fan of those like you who rape history in the name of dead, evil ideologies that my forefathers fought against. You have thus far offered no resistance to our fact-based arguments and are close to total capitulation. Your use of braindead memes and cheap insults only discredits you.

I doubt many (if anyone) contributing to this thread has anything to do with the subject matter directly. The point, as with any subject, is not whether the poster has some sort of ulterior motive but whether or not what is being posted is true.

Jumping up and down and shouting 'Hasbara', 'Zionist shill' or whatever as if that's all that is required does nothing to persuade anyone that they are incorrect and is as irrelevant as me disagreeing with a poster just because he is a nazi.

The disagreement is over points of fact and historical accuracy. Nazis and their loathsome apologists are not so good at presenting these.

 

[Darat]

Yet again the thread devolves into comments about one another. Issued several Rule 11/12/0 infractions but not going to go back any further in trying to remove posts in breach of the Membership Agreement. Going to put the thread onto moderated status for a little while to see if we can get it back to the topic of the thread rather than what you think of each other.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat

 

[Nessie]

In Eric Hunts video on the gas chambers, at 13.08 he presents a witness Allen Seder who talks about showering. Hunt presents that as having taken place at Treblinka. Is there access to the entire interview? Seder's interview is subtitled Bialystock to Treblinka to Majdanek. I want to check where in that journey he is recounting showering.

My recollection from previous debates when Hunts video first came out was that he had posted interviewees recounting showering, but it was at their final destination.

 

[LemmyCaution]

http://vhaonline.usc.edu/viewingPage?testimonyID=7008&returnIndex=0#

According to the note on this page, this interview "is not viewable in the Visual History Archive Online. Testimony videos not viewable in the VHA Online can be viewed onsite at many institutions around the world."

There's a link for a directory of sites where the interview can be viewed.

 

[Nessie]

Can this thread be reinstated without moderation? It has died a death.

 

[Darat]

Thread taken off moderated status. Any return to the previous naughty behaviour will result it going straight back onto moderated status!

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat

 

[Hans]

Can this thread be reinstated without moderation? It has died a death.

Well it seems to lack a antagonist. We appear to be all protagonists.

Unless someone would like to volunteer to be the antagonist we are stuck. Until the sloshing tides of fate once again wash up a suitable foil.

 

[Loss Leader]

Well it seems to lack a antagonist. We appear to be all protagonists.

Unless someone would like to volunteer to be the antagonist we are stuck. Until the sloshing tides of fate once again wash up a suitable foil.

The 6 million figure is not supported by evidence. In reality, the total number of Jews murdered was different - as low as 5.65 million (though possibly more than 6 million). Records are spotty and the Soviets overstated their losses to the Nazis.

Debunk that, Jew lovers!

 

[Childlike Empress]

The guy Scaramucci who was briefly speaker of the White House has put up a poll on twitter that asks how many Jews died during the holocaust, and at the moment almost a quarter of almost 40,000 votes say it was less than a million, while around 70% say it was more than five millions. This seems to make some headwaves in the usual circles.

 

[SpitfireIX]

In fairness, this could simply be a case of widespread ignorance of history, rather than rampant Holocaust denial. I believe Scaramucci stated that the former was what he intended to demonstrate. However, I see that some deniers are posting their [rule10] in the comments.

 

[Nessie]

We don't need a resident denier since none are able or willing to evidence their beliefs and there reasons to dismiss evidence for the Holocaust are spurious.

At the moment I am getting the usual abuse at RODOH for providing medical evidence to prove F Berg's claim the vast majority of people gassed with CO would show obvious bright cherry red skin. Since only one witness mentions pink skin (a German who witnessed a gassing using a van) and some witnesses mention other colours, Berg thinks he has found a flaw which shows all the witnesses lied. The problem for him is that cherry red skin is not common and obvious prior to death (the CDC and NHS confirm that) and it only appears with lividity.

Berg's next mistake is he thought lividity appears all over the body within minutes of death. But it take hours to form and cannot form at all if a body is moved. As the bodies were being moved from the chambers to be buried they had not had time to left lividity form and in any case, movement stopped it from forming.

 

[Nessie]

The guy Scaramucci who was briefly speaker of the White House has put up a poll on twitter that asks how many Jews died during the holocaust, and at the moment almost a quarter of almost 40,000 votes say it was less than a million, while around 70% say it was more than five millions. This seems to make some headwaves in the usual circles.

The problem with asking "how many were killed" is that means different things to different people. To me "killed" means murdered, so that is those who were gassed or shot. That includes reprisal actions such as at Babi Yar as well as actions part of the Final Solution.

If you asked my how many died, I would include everyone who died whilst under Nazi control, from those who perished during persecutions, in the camps from disease or neglect and who died on the death marches.

Then people often don't think of non Jews, such as gypsies and others who were gassed and shot. They think of the Holocaust as referring to Jewish victims.

 

[Loss Leader]

If you asked my how many died, I would include everyone who died whilst under Nazi control, from those who perished during persecutions, in the camps from disease or neglect and who died on the death marches.

I would include those deaths as kills because the Nazi's weren't actually trying to keep any of those people alive. If it were a real refugee camp ravaged by disease, maybe. But there was no "resettlement," it was all just slavery and murder.

 

[smartcooky]

We don't need a resident denier since none are able or willing to evidence their beliefs and there reasons to dismiss evidence for the Holocaust are spurious.

At the moment I am getting the usual abuse at RODOH for providing medical evidence to prove F Berg's claim the vast majority of people gassed with CO would show obvious bright cherry red skin. Since only one witness mentions pink skin (a German who witnessed a gassing using a van) and some witnesses mention other colours, Berg thinks he has found a flaw which shows all the witnesses lied. The problem for him is that cherry red skin is not common and obvious prior to death (the CDC and NHS confirm that) and it only appears with lividity.

Berg's next mistake is he thought lividity appears all over the body within minutes of death. But it take hours to form and cannot form at all if a body is moved. As the bodies were being moved from the chambers to be buried they had not had time to left lividity form and in any case, movement stopped it from forming.

Indeed, there are often aspects appearance of a body that might not become apparent in an examination shortly after death, which only become apparent hours later with a detailed examination by a forensic pathologist. Certain kinds of bruising sometimes don't show up until after rigor mortis has ended. In rare cases, previously invisible bruises can show up during embalming.

In the case of red skin due to CO poisoning, most coroners would not see the body until some hours after death, so its understandable that they would record that as an observation to determine cause of death. However, immediate witnesses are much less likely to see this colouration. The colouration takes time because it is a chemical process. The time to onset of the redness of the skin can can vary according to the dose and the length of time to which the victim was exposed. A long period low dose leading to death (rather than a short period high dose) would result in a quicker discolouration after death because there has been more time for the chemical process to take place.

 

[Nessie]

I would include those deaths as kills because the Nazi's weren't actually trying to keep any of those people alive. If it were a real refugee camp ravaged by disease, maybe. But there was no "resettlement," it was all just slavery and murder.

Deniers point to there was a lot of work in camps to keep people alive with actions to stop disease and hospitals. They ask, why have hospitals when the plan was supposedly to kill everyone? But as you say, it was just to keep the slaves working.

 

[LemmyCaution]

To me "killed" means murdered, so that is those who were gassed or shot.

Those Jews who died of enforced disease and starvation both in ghettos and in camps are included in most of the death statistics I know of - e.g., Hilberg who has a category he calls "Ghettoization and general privation." A reading of the diary of young Dawid Sierakowiak, with its brutal description of privation and starvation, or of the conditions in the Gammelblocks at Majdanek will reinforce this point. IMO. German Judenpolitik are responsible for these deaths; similar thinking can apply to the casualties caused by Germany's ally Romania in the Transnistria. As is well known, Hilberg estimates at least 5.1m deaths in excess of "normal" deaths including the ghetto privation totals and all-in totals from the camps without breaking out shooting or gassing in them.

 

[dudalb]

At "Counterpunch" a far left website,there is a spate of articles trying to whitewash the Pol Pot regime. There tactics and methods...surprise,surprise,....strongly resemble those of the Holocaust deniers.

 

[Jeffk 1970]

At "Counterpunch" a far left website,there is a spate of articles trying to whitewash the Pol Pot regime. There tactics and methods...surprise,surprise,....strongly resemble those of the Holocaust deniers.

So do the arguments of 9-11 “Truthers.”

 

[Nessie]

Those Jews who died of enforced disease and starvation both in ghettos and in camps are included in most of the death statistics I know of - e.g., Hilberg who has a category he calls "Ghettoization and general privation." A reading of the diary of young Dawid Sierakowiak, with its brutal description of privation and starvation, or of the conditions in the Gammelblocks at Majdanek will reinforce this point. IMO. German Judenpolitik are responsible for these deaths; similar thinking can apply to the casualties caused by Germany's ally Romania in the Transnistria. As is well known, Hilberg estimates at least 5.1m deaths in excess of "normal" deaths including the ghetto privation totals and all-in totals from the camps without breaking out shooting or gassing in them.

Is there any figures for deaths broken down into -

Einsatzgruppen shootings
AR camp gassings
T4 gassings
Disease in camps & ghettos
Executions (escapers, camp discipline etc)
Death marches
Starvation

or categories like that?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Nessie, I haven't seen a comprehensive breakdown at the level of detail you are asking for. For Majdanek, I've looked at gassing vs shooting vs privation, and come up with between 15,000 and 20,000 estimate gassing death (the USHMM gives a higher estimate but I haven't been able to figure out why).

Of course Birkenau would be very different from Majdanek - at Birkenau there were about 600,000 deemed unfit on arrival and gassed straightaway; to these must be added those selected inside the camp, as Muselmänner or in the Gypsy and family camp actions - this number is unknown to me. At Chełmno, Sobibór, Bełzec, and Treblinka nearly all would have been gassed with some 1000s of sick/infirm/weak shot on arrival.

T4 didn't involve Jews per se, of course, but over 70,000 victims were gassed or killed by means of injection during the official so-called euthanasia program (Sept '39 - Aug '41), with IIRC over more 100,000 murdered, most often by injection or other use of drugs, during the so-called wild euthanasia that followed.

Blatman and Wachsmann would give estimates for the number who died during the death marches and camp liquidations - but, again, the death marches killed KL prisoners in general and were not aimed at Jewish liquidations, so caution is needed here. Yad Vashem gives a figure of up to 250,000 deaths during such actions in the final 10 months of the war, with 1/3 of the victims being Jews.

OTOH 14f13, an extension of the so-called euthanasia to the KLs beginning in spring 1941, targeted Jews along with asocials and political prisoners IIRC. Perhaps as many as 20,000 were killed, both inside the KLs and at the T-4 killing centers, in Aktion 14f13.

Here is the spreadsheet I've made for myself at a higher level. It's based on Hilberg with tweaks from HC articles and various other sources. Btw Gerlach's most recent book is another good source on causes of mortality during these events. I am sure there are better compilations of deaths than my own note taking but this is what I have handy: