General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

[Nessie]

Apparently the concept of no single CREDIBLE witness flew over yours

Please explain why no witness who was at an AR camp, claimed there were daily transports back out of the camp of trains carrying thousands of men, women and children.

Please explain why there are no records or witnesses to show hundreds of thousands of men, women and children arriving at any other camp from an AR camp.

 

[Dash80]

Please explain why no witness who was at an AR camp, claimed there were daily transports back out of the camp of trains carrying thousands of men, women and children.

Please explain why there are no records or witnesses to show hundreds of thousands of men, women and children arriving at any other camp from an AR camp.

Yes, Saggy.

Please tell us where all those Jews went. The ones who entered the camps and nobody recalls leaving. Narnia, perhaps?

It is well known that a very small minority were selected on the ramps of Sobibor and Treblinka in particular, to be sent to labour camps. Those don't count, we're talking entire transports full of people arriving and leaving like they would at real transit camps.

 

[Saggy]

selling Nazi memorabilia and minimizing/rationalizing Nazi genocide will gain a person a reputation like that . . .

One cannot minimize or rationalize something that never happened. You can't minimize or rationalize Superman, or UFOs, or the Salem witches. In exactly the same way, you can't minimize or rationalize the holohoax.

There is a vid that states it best ...

The holocaust is a preposterous hoax that is unsupported by any physical evidence. It is made up of literally millions of lies, but it all rests on one 'big lie'.

The hoax has three main components -
1. The Nazis planned to exterminate the Jews.
2. The Nazis built gas chambers to exterminate the Jews and disguised them as shower rooms.
3. The Nazis killed six million Jews.

Each component of the hoax is categorically false and completely without evidence.

1. There was no Nazi plan to exterminate the Jews or anyone else, and no evidence of one has ever been found.

2. The gas chambers disguised as shower rooms are pure phantasmagoria, and there is not a shred of physical evidence for them.

3. The number of Jews killed in the camps for being Jews is zero, and it is well documented that the Nazis aggressively investigate any crime in the camps.

That is the hoax, and the reality

The big lie is the photos and film footage that are shown of Jewish prisoners who had been gassed by the Nazis. The truth is that all the photos and film were taken after the war by British and US soldiers, and showed prisoners of all nationalities and religions who had died of tyhpus at the very last weeks of the war, primarily at Belsen where 35,000 died, 10,000 after the camp had been liberated by the British. Further the Nazis had done everything in their power to combat the epidemic as is proven by captured correspondence from the camp commandant Josef Kramer.

Introduction to the Holohoax

 

[Belz...]

One cannot minimize or rationalize something that never happened.

Except that your only argument against it happening is that you've not looked at the evidence that it did and that, consequently, said evidence doesn't exist.

That's not very convincing.

 

[Saggy]

Except that your only argument against it happening is that you've not looked at the evidence that it did and that, consequently, said evidence doesn't exist.

That's not very convincing.

If you need convincing that the evidence shown for the last 70 years of the holohoax is a total lie watch the vid ...Introduction to the Holohoax

which includes the original footage from the hidden British documentary, or you can watch the British documentary itself, which was hidden for 50 year but can now be seen here ..

PBS Frontline - Memory of the Camps

Look for this shot in the PBS vid -

 

[Belz...]

If you need convincing that the evidence shown for the last 70 years of the holohoax is a total lie watch the vid ...Introduction to the Holohoax

which includes the original footage from the hidden British documentary, or you can watch the British documentary itself, which was hidden for 50 year but can now be seen here ..

PBS Frontline - Memory of the Camps

Look for this shot in the PBS vid -
[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/FEgmdtq.jpg[/qimg]

Thanks for proving my point.

Of course you'll rely on youtube conspiracy videos. What else would you latch on to but poorly-research drivel?

 

[Saggy]

Thanks for proving my point.

Of course you'll rely on youtube conspiracy videos. What else would you latch on to but poorly-research drivel?

The British documentary is direct evidence. But of course, you knew that.

 

[Belz...]

The British documentary is direct evidence. But of course, you knew that.

Don't tell me what I know. I've seen ignore every piece of evidence shown, and the only thing you've thrown back at us are Youtube videos and crank sites. Do you have any credible finding to show us? Something we can read that doesn't come from crazy people?

 

[LemmyCaution]

The hoax has three main components -
1. The Nazis planned to exterminate the Jews.
2. The Nazis built gas chambers to exterminate the Jews and disguised them as shower rooms.
3. The Nazis killed six million Jews. . . .

That is the hoax, and the reality

This post says that you are trying to sell a strawman with gas+plan+six. To re-phrase, generally historians conclude that:

1. gas chambers were indeed used to kill people - about 2.7 million Jews, about half the victims in the Holocaust as well as, in related crimes, victims of the T-4 and 14f13 programs and members of other groups (Roma, POWs, etc); gassing is thus not the only murder method which historians claim
2. there was no master plan as you claim but rather a series of increasingly radical decisions (taken locally and centrally, to murder Jews (from Cesarani's recent book, for example: where he warns against those who would "over-interpret the instrumentality and coherence of Judenpolitik. . . . It was improvised, unplanned, and, hence, unpredictable. . . ." and ". . . specific planning for the Jewish population was left late and remained vague"); there was, however, a state policy that emerged during 1941 and early 1942 to exterminate European Jews, by different means including murder, starvation, and destruction through labor
3. the death toll of Jews perishing in the Holocaust was most likely in the low 5 millions (e.g., Hilberg 5.1 milliion, with other estimates ranging from low 5 million to around 6 million)

The hoax here is your trying to tart up a strawman definition of the Holocaust that caricatures what scholars have found.

the Nazis had done everything in their power to combat the epidemic as is proven by captured correspondence from the camp commandant Josef Kramer.

This is total BS. See these three links, here (summary) and here (Wachsmann) and here (Höss) - they describe conditions in Bergen-Belsen and how they came about and especially their deterioration during the last year of the war.

(I apologize in advance as the posts are not short and you will have to read a bit to understand the issues and how the Nazi-run KL system, always atrocious, went into collapse during the final period of WWII.)

You owe us your evidence and witnesses for resettlement of between 2.5-3.0 million Jews to Neptune. Please. Stop dodging and diverting. Answer what Parsman, Nessie, and others have asked you.

 

[LemmyCaution]

1. To escape from the challenge of replying to Parsman and Nessie, Saggy began spamming links and quotations about Auschwitz Sonderkommandos Maurice and Shlomo Venezia and Dario Gabbai.

The Auschwitz Museum published a multi-volume history of the camp in 2000 (English edition of 1995 publication - Dlugoborski & Piper, editors, Auschwitz 1940-1945, 5 volumes.). It represents the then-current research on Auschwitz-Birkenau and provides a heavily sourced (3286 notes) empirical description of what went on in the camp complex, including the gassing program.

The 5-volume history lays out and supports the case for the mass murder of Jews at Auschwitz-Birkenau. It refers the Maurice Venezia's testimonies exactly 0 times, it refers to Shlomo Venezia's testimony/book exactly 0 times, and it refers to Dario Gabbai's testimony exactly 0 times.

By noting this, I am not making a judgment on the testimony of these men (Gabbai's interview in Greif's book, We Wept Without Tears, is very useful, as is Greif's commentary). The Auschwitz 5-volume history does not, however, make extensive use of recent memory sources, for what I think are obvious reasons.

The case for Auschwtiz is made by sources other than those Saggy wants to discuss - but many of us have requested, because Saggy has dismissed all witnesses as not credible, that he discuss the main sources used to support the case for mass murder at the camp. Can Saggy explain what are the problems he believes exist in the Auschwitz Museum's camp history and how deniers refute its main arguments?

2. Equally obvious is that Saggy's other source, Dawn Skorczewski, a writing and English professor at Brandeis (not a historian), whose area of interest seems to be trauma and who has written on the confessional poet Anne Sexton, would make use of memory materials to understand the psychological impact of traumatic experiences in shaping people's lives and consciousness through the writings and testimonies of trauma victims.

Once again, Saggy's given us much ado about nothing - beneath hysterical headlines.

 

[Saggy]

This is total BS. ......

You got that right !

The British doc. is an absolute authority on Belsen. The typhus epidemic is fully documented. Btw, this is a pic from the doc was taken by the Brits at Belsen as they entered the camp ...

Mark Weber is always a reliable source:

Bergen-Belsen Camp: The suppressed story

Kramer's letter -

English Translation of a Letter to Gruppenführer Richard Glücks from Hauptsturmführer Josef Kramer Dated 01 March 1945

 

[Saggy]

It refers the Maurice Venezia's testimonies exactly 0 times, it refers to Shlomo Venezia's testimony/book exactly 0 times, and it refers to Dario Gabbai's testimony exactly 0 times.

How about Herman Rosenblatt's testimony .... or his wife's ..... this is a classic ....

Interview with Herman Rosenblat - a Holocaust liar

 

[LemmyCaution]

LOL nope, for two reasons, Rosenblat's fictions were set in Buchenwald, not Auschwitz; and more to the point Rosenblat made stuff up IIRC about 50 years after the war - was caught (I believe Lipstadt was the first to call him out?). Try being serious.

 

[LemmyCaution]

You got that right !

The British doc. is an absolute authority on Belsen. The typhus epidemic is fully documented. Btw, this is a pic from the doc was taken by the Brits at Belsen as they entered the camp ...

[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/FEgmdtq.jpg[/qimg]

Mark Weber is always a reliable source:

Bergen-Belsen Camp: The suppressed story

Kramer's letter -

English Translation of a Letter to Gruppenführer Richard Glücks from Hauptsturmführer Josef Kramer Dated 01 March 1945

You didn't even read the posts I linked you to: if you had you would have read that I wrote about the reasons for and impact of the typhus epidemic:

As explained here, Belsen, overwhelmed by incoming inmates, already saw a typhus epidemic - in February 1945, when the monthly death toll jumped from 1,200 to over 6,000. This snapshot is indicative of what was happening in Belsen in 1945.

But also that

. . . B-B, as it was changed into an "absorption camp" by 1945, "was transformed into one of the most atrocious murder sites for Jews and other concentration camp prisoners" (p 132). IMO Blatman is on solid ground - looking at what occurred at the camp, as a result of intentional decisions made by the Nazi leadership about what to do with the KLs and how to address labor needs, "murder" seems an apt description. I think the murders are somewhat analogous to what happened in ghettos like Lodz and Warsaw - only the medical/health conditions at B-B were made to spiral into chaos. . . . prisoners from the East were jammed into the camp as part of the solution to the Red Army's advance and the Reich's labor needs, without adequate preparations to receive them (medical care, food, sleeping, hygiene), B-B became a "vital cog" in the continuing drive to exterminate prisoners through labor (which, to be clear, was not directed solely at Jewish prisoners at any point during the war, Thierack note, 18 September 1942, item 2). It is in this context - the role as "vital cog" in the brutal forced labor complex during the collapse of Reich and economic infrastructure - that Kramer acceded to camp leadership. . . . the increased mortality of March-April 1945 was an inevitable result of the conditions that the Nazis had created at B-B by late winter 1945 - it had nothing to do with the Allied victory and takeover of camps, Allied bombing, etc.

Weber is a serial liar.

 

[Saggy]

You didn't even read the posts I linked you to: if you had you would have read that I wrote about the reasons for and impact of the typhus epidemic:
But also that
Weber is a serial liar.

Thanks for ignoring Kramer's letter, as well as Weber's article, which disprove the degenerate lies of the Jews.

Another favorite of the hoaxers is pics from Nordhausen, which was bombed by the Brits at the end of the war ... get the full story in this great vid, which includes an interview with a Jewish doctor working in the Nordhausen hospital at the time ...

Questioning The Holocaust - Why We Believed (Part 1 of 2)

 

[Border Reiver]

The hoax has three main components -
1. The Nazis planned to exterminate the Jews.
2. The Nazis built gas chambers to exterminate the Jews and disguised them as shower rooms.
3. The Nazis killed six million Jews.

Each component of the hoax is categorically false and completely without evidence.

1. There was no Nazi plan to exterminate the Jews or anyone else, and no evidence of one has ever been found.

I give you the Jager Report where an SS officer outlines how he is carrying out his orders to get rid of Jews in the Baltic states.

And of course there was that turgid piece of crap that was Mein Kampf...

2. The gas chambers disguised as shower rooms are pure phantasmagoria, and there is not a shred of physical evidence for them.

Except for the plans, photographs, invoices for their construction, etc.

3. The number of Jews killed in the camps for being Jews is zero, and it is well documented that the Nazis aggressively investigate any crime in the camps.

There are records of them entering the camps. There are NO records of them leaving. There is quite a bit of evidence of human remains at various camp sites. If they didn't die at the camps, where are they?

 

[Border Reiver]

Thanks for ignoring Kramer's letter, as well as Weber's article, which disprove the degenerate lies of the Jews.

As you ignore the Jager Report which documents the atrocities of the Nazis.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Thanks for ignoring Kramer's letter, as well as Weber's article, which disprove the degenerate lies of the Jews.

You'd never ignore evidence, would you, Saggy?
Like you'd never ignore repeated requests for evidence of the onward transit, and ultimate survival, of all the European Jews who entered the camps.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Thanks for ignoring Kramer's letter, as well as Weber's article, which disprove the degenerate lies of the Jews.

I am familiar with both and the posts I linked you to - which you still evidently refuse to read - dealt with the issues in both (e.g. "Kramer appealed to Glucks for support in doing something about the conditions in the camp - when it was too late, when the self-imposed problems of Reich KL and labor policy had imploded, in March 1945, again prior to the Allied liberation of B-B - as the camp was in uncontrolled meltdown; Kramer wrote . . . "). Try catching up.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Thanks for ignoring Kramer's letter, as well as Weber's article, which disprove the degenerate lies of the Jews.

Another favorite of the hoaxers is pics from Nordhausen, which was bombed by the Brits at the end of the war ... get the full story in this great vid, which includes an interview with a Jewish doctor working in the Nordhausen hospital at the time ...

Questioning The Holocaust - Why We Believed (Part 1 of 2). . . .

this post and ones that follow . . . I want to propose an idea: you stop posting old crap that's been rehashed to death - and deal with the questions you've been asked about resettlement and discuss the witnesses we have cited - and I'll stop posting links from long ago that "preemptively" deal with your nonsense.