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General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

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selling Nazi memorabilia and minimizing/rationalizing Nazi genocide will gain a person a reputation like that . . .
 
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I'm quote sure Saggy is just blind posting now...he doesn't actually read anyone's posts, he just comes to the thread, clicks Post Reply and then spams the thread with more of his ill-informed and vile tripe
 
Yup. The two go hand-in-hand. I cannot think of a single Holocaust denier with a public profile whom I would not class as, at the very least, an anti-Semitic racist Nazi sympathiser.

It goes even further than that, here are three quotes just recently posted on the RODOH forum

kevinwalsh - "As I already explained to you, you have to disenfranchise women for that to happen. That requires a terror campaign."

been-there - "Israeli/International Jewry/pro-Zionist organisations are also behind the forced multi-culturalist immigration policies and rhetoric"

werd - "once the Muslims put infidel women under control, they will come for the infidel men next"

Their hate is immense towards so many others.
 
Relevant to the last few posts is a post I made recently in another forum:

This may be a little off topic but I can't figure out where it goes - and it does address the motivations and impact of HD. Today I came across this note on "revisionism" in Roger Griffin's The Nature of Fascism (the chapter in which I read the note is interesting if, of course, out of date):
Revisionism is arguably the most insidious form taken by crypto-fascism* as a publicistic phenomenon, for it not only plays a crucial role in the ecumenicalization of post-war fascism but provides common ground and channels of communication between nostalgic, mimetic (especially neo-Nazi**) and neo-fascists*** of many persuasions. In view of the body blow dealt to the credibility and "image" of fascism in general by the crimes against humanity perpetrated in the name of the Nazi New Order, the conscious minimization, relativization or juggling away of those crimes plays a crucial role in the rehabilitation of palingenetic ultra-nationalism in general. Taking advantage of the more poorly educated strata of post-1945 generations concerning the realities of the Second World War, "vulgar" revisionism boils down to a point - blank detail that six million Jews died as victims of the Nazis' genocidal anti-Semitic campaign, dismissing the idea as a hysterical myth put about by the Jews themselves or their backers. . . .

Sophisticated revisionism is produced by a cottage industry of self-appointed international experts. . . . By using sophistry and bad faith to exploit genuine problems involved in social science methodology as well as empirical gaps in the historical record, these "para-historians" . . . imply the benign or misunderstood nature of the Nazi project for a new European order, and the "hysteria" of references to organized genocide and death camps. . . .
(pp 168-169) Reading this still-apt description of "historical revisionism," I thought especially of the so-called ex-deniers we've seen emerge from the dismal sewer of HD recently. First and foremost, I thought of Hunt's "End of the Line" "essay" in which he wrote, almost echoing Griffin, about "The really good factual work I did, debunking of Steven Spielberg’s Oscar Winning liewitness Irene Zisblatt, or the use of the British bombed Nordhausen camp as Holocaust propaganda . . ." - and how he will continue working "to change the disastrous course 24/7 Holocaust guilt propaganda has had on Germany, Western Civilization, Palestine, and the world" and where he wrote, giving away the ghost, that "In many ways I feel the 'denial' issue held me back from tackling other issues essential to the survival of Western Civilization. Especially Nationalism, race realism, and opposing the very real Jewish-led white genocide campaign." I also thought of the para-history evident in the Buchenwald photo obsession in this subforum along with lists of KL confessions obtained through torture and the like. This sort of cherrypicking and these obsessions strike me as extensions of the rehabilitation and bridging efforts, dressed up and presented as historical inquiry, which Griffin describes.

* Griffin defines crypto-fascist as "latent ultra-nationalism contained within a number of pressure groups and political parties which, though they officially claim to be committed to liberal democracy and may explicitly dissociate themselves from inter-war fascist regimes, especially the Third Reich . . . through their publicistic activities and affiliations, act as bridges between the far right and the ultra-right." (pp 166-167)
** For Griffin, the term neo-Nazi refers to "formations which take up the basic world-view and struggle of the inter-war fascist movements." (p 163)
*** Griffin distinguishes neo-fascist groups from neo-Nazi groups in that the former "have either introduced original themes or cultural idioms into major inter-war permutations, or reject them altogether in the name of entirely new rationales." (p 166) He situates "revisionism" within neo-fascism.
 
This part "By using sophistry and bad faith to exploit genuine problems involved in social science methodology as well as empirical gaps in the historical record..." is a major tactic. Denialists demand "empirical evidence" as if that is the only way to prove what took place in the AR camps and locations such as Rumbula and Ponary.

If you then try and pin them down on what exactly they want to see, it boils down to the totally impractical/unreasonable/impossible mass excavation of the sites, to somehow sift out the human remains, quantify them, identify them and establish a cause of death.

They think that the Nazis own investigation at Katyn (where corpses could be counted, identified and cause of death established) is also possible at TII or elsewhere.

The one suggestion I do think is reasonable and possible, is a GPR type survey which would fully map out what is underground, to show where ground has never been disturbed, where it has been disturbed but there are no remains (which would be the original mass graves) and where there are now remains (and possibly what state they are in).

Kola produced a study at Belzec that showed the above, but it was with bore holes, which left lots of gaps and the results were drawn plans, which denialists find easy to dismiss.
 
Using standard social science methodology - of the kind used in all other historical inquiry - and analyzing the full range of evidence, and gaps in that context, will be enough to convince any honest party - and some dishonest ones too (Hunt, Cole, BROI) - that we know and understand enough to agree that the Nazis and their allies carried out a persecution and a genocide of European Jews during WWII, murdering north of 5 million Jews (along with other crimes).

The debate amongst genuinely interested, serious inquirers is over mechanisms and decisionmaking; Jewish responses and survival strategies; interrelationships among states and ethnic groups; interactions of war, food, anti-Semitic, economic and other policies; motivation; perpetrators; micro histories of violence and survival; memory; justice and international law; and other subtopics. Debate is NOT about whether the Nazis carried out genocide or its approximate scale but, rather, how and why they got there, how they mobilized perpetrators and allies, how they managed various population groups including victims, and what were the sources of the special animus of their genocidal project.
 
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A common lie of the media is that anyone who is sceptical of the holocaust is a "neo nazi". African American columnist Jonas E Alexis is a holocaust revisionist and has written an obituary for Ernst Zundel -
www.veteranstoday.com/2017/08/07/ernst-zundel-the-man-who-destroyed-the-holocaust-industry-died/
Discussion on Ernst Zundel at CODOH -
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11298


http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11947133#post11947133

Zundel was a liar. I.e., he famously stated that Survivors were not cross examined or questioned until his trial in the late 80s (a lie that Mondial happily repeats). Anyone who has actually studied the history of war crimes trials can see that this is bollocks. As early as the 60s, West German courts rigorously examined witnesses because they needed detailed information about the suspects' behaviour when they comitted their crimes, in order to meet the strict requirements for murder convictions. This was why a lot of perpetrators either got off or had light sentences, which puts the lie to the deniers' favorite excuse that the Germans were "tortured"

Zundel deliberately spread false inforrmation, and Deniers eagerly swallow it up despite the real history of war crimes trials being easily accessible. I'm not going to mince words, it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. Zundel was a liar, and the world is better off without him. Good riddance.

As explained, Zundel was a liar. This a-hole Mondial so happily cites is probably a liar too, given his glowing words of Zundel's lies.
 
A colleague of mine has studied Zündel's career and trial in depth (I haven't, for example, reviewed first-hand the history of Zündel's writings and advocacy, his website or the books/pamphlets/etc he sold). Some of relevant points made by my colleague, based on his review of primary and secondary literature, including trial materials, include:
- as a young emigre from Germany to Canada, Zündel (a graphic artist at the time) became close to, and a protege of, French-Canadian fascist Adrien Arcand
- Zündel's early activism centered on the link between supposed anti-German hate and Holocaust "skepticism"; Zündel's linkage of supposed anti-German bigotry, Zionist hate, and Holocaust denial remained themes during the rest of his career (Zündel seems to have been one of those whose HD motivation stemmed in part from a nostalgic, defensive view of German heritage)
- when he moved to Toronto in the '70s Zündel began disseminating political tracts - which supported Nazism and defended Germans from supposed hate; he also began writing and doing illustrations (under the pseudonym Christof Friedrich, see below) for racist publications; by '78 Zündel was publicly protesting the TV miniseries “Holocaust” as “another example of the hate we Germans are subjected to in our schools and on TV.”
- by the '80s Zündel had established Samisdat Publishers to distribute - to customers in 45 countries - pro-Nazi publications, Nazi memorabilia, and HD materials (e.g., "Did Six Million Really Die?" written by British fascist Richard Verrall using the name Richard Harwood); in the face of complaints against Samisdat the Canadian postal authorities found that Zündel's operation was “in bad taste and no doubt offensive to some” but merely reflective of the struggle between Germans and Jews (!) and thus legal
- Zündel's defense of German heritage depended on his identification of the Jews as those who attacked Germans and Germany; he depicted Holocaust history as a Zionist scam and instrument of vilification of Germans
- the famous trials of Zündel, under Canada's false news law, came later, as he continued his propaganda activities

PHDN has collected some examples of Zündel's statements, writings, and activities here; this small assortment includes short excerpts from a book Zündel co-authored with Eric Thomson (who coined the phrase ZOG) entitled "The Hitler We Loved and Why" (longer excerpt found here).

It is because of this record, not media dishonesty, that historians and others describe Zündel as a neo-Nazi. Sad fact: you promote Hitler and anti-Semitism, people will describe you for what you are. If a propagandist for Hitler complains on being so described, he's not only a neo-Nazi but gutless.
 
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A common lie of the media is that anyone who is sceptical of the holocaust is a "neo nazi". African American columnist Jonas E Alexis is a holocaust revisionist and has written an obituary for Ernst Zundel -
www.veteranstoday.com/2017/08/07/ernst-zundel-the-man-who-destroyed-the-holocaust-industry-died/
Discussion on Ernst Zundel at CODOH -
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11298


If the shoe fits....

It just means stupidity crosses a lot of ethnic divides.
 
A common lie of the media is that anyone who is sceptical of the holocaust is a "neo nazi". African American columnist Jonas E Alexis is a holocaust revisionist and has written an obituary for Ernst Zundel -
www.veteranstoday.com/2017/08/07/ernst-zundel-the-man-who-destroyed-the-holocaust-industry-died/
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From your link:
Are we going to apply the same logic to Benjamin Netanyahu, who praised the Red Army which ended up killing more than twenty million innocent men, women, and children?[7]

:jaw-dropp

:D

That's funny, perhaps the author should spend some time reading actual books.
 
Just so. And, Morris Venezia is a good representative of the pathological liars that have become the most prominent witnesses. He is full of preposterous tales which I shall recount in posts to come, and his cousin is the infamous Dario Gabbai, featured in Spielberg's movie, and dissected by Eric Hunt, but we'll get to that later. Venezia has uttered what has got to be the most idiotic, degenerate, absurd line in the whole holohoax ... here we go ...

Stulberg: Were you ever in the gas chamber? Did you see the gas chamber?

Venezia: Of course I was every day over there.

Stulberg: Can you describe to us what it looked like?

Venezia: It’s nothing to describe It was an empty room. You could imagine for three thousand people to go in there. I can tell you that. As soon as the transport train was coming, like I told you, my mother was in lines with the kids and the pregnant women, and so on.

I know there are some diligent scholars of the hoax on this board, and I'm challenging one and all to go through this 4 hour vid to find where he utters the words ... my mother was in lines with the kids and the pregnant women, and so on

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-IinMCbdJA

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/SroHTxC.jpg[/qimg]

He has joined the ranks of Abraham Bomba, who gave a haircut to his wife and mother (?), sister (?), in the very gas chamber where they were gassed minutes later.

But hey, there's plenty more on Venezia to come.

Apparently the concept of no SINGLE credible witness flew over your head.
 
Relevant to the last few posts is a post I made recently in another forum:

In view of the body blow dealt to the credibility and "image" of fascism in general by the crimes against humanity perpetrated in the name of the Nazi New Order, the conscious minimization, relativization or juggling away of those crimes plays a crucial role in the rehabilitation of palingenetic ultra-nationalism in general.

To boil that down into something that the less sophisticated can understand...


"In order to make the bad guys seem like good guys, you have to make the bad stuff the bad guys did go away so its like it never happened"

This is what HD is all about

Interestingly though, not all Neo-Nazis are Deniers. I met a couple of them once who not only acknowledged that the Holocaust really happened, they were actually proud of their Nazi role models. They thought Jews got what they deserved, and that it was a shame the Nazis weren't able to finish the job, because if they had, the world would be a better place because it would rid of them. They didn't like it much when I told them they would just find someone else to hate.

They told me they regarded Hitler, Goebels and Goering as war heroes. It actually sickened me to be in the same room with them, breathing the same air.
 
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