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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Nick Terry said:
you still haven't read the section of that chapter, have you?
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This is CM: if someone else cannot spoon fed to zie in the course of a 7 or eight line post, it doesn't exist -- you don't expect zie to actually *read* and *learn* something, do you?

CM: No one has forgotten that you were given citations, and even citations that met your moved goal posts, and you dismissed them unread as fantasy.

Every here can see that you did this because it challenged your assertions.

No one here except you sees this as a bad thing.

Now, all of those lies you continue to run from -- normal people *do* see that as bad, and also see that lying is all you have to justify your irrational hate.
 
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Nick Terry said:
That depends on the Holocaust denier, of course. Deniers need to be divided into four categories:

1) gurus, those who write books denying the Holocaust (like Butz)
2) cheerleaders, other deniers who write things or make statements denying the Holocaust (like Ahmadinejad, or David Duke) but who contribute no new ideas to the belief system
3) internet deniers, who post on internet forums denying the Holocaust (like Stormfront, or CODOH, or our small gaggle here), and other minor small fry who maybe write letters to mainstream media outlets or make a pro-denial comment on a blog
4) passive deniers, who have read the websites or books and continue to do so, but who have not yapped about it on the internet or in public - i.e. the overall market for Holocaust denial literature and propaganda.

The gurus (1) number about 100 since 1945, and about 33%-50% can be considered overt Hitler huggers. The rest are antisemitic. There are virtually no exceptions to that rule, with Bradley Smith being one of the few, since he got sucked in because of his libertarianism. He has however now absorbed passively the antisemitism of the rest of the crowd. So approximately 99 out of 100 gurus are either Hitler huggers or antisemites, or both.

Of the 100 gurus, none are so stupid they can't write a book, obviously, but all of them make assertions which are either based on logical fallacies or which are simply plain wrong due to ignorance or poor reasoning.

There are proportionately far fewer Hitler Huggers among the cheerleaders (2) since you have to factor in the Islamists, none of whom have risen to guru status, as well as the fringe Christian sects. But for every Ahmadinejad there is a David Duke or Alex Linder or Harold Covington, so you can figure 1/3 Hitler Huggers among this group, and pretty much 99% being antisemites. Stupidity is again relative, but when Bishop Williamson came out and babbled about 'six million gassed', that is a stupid comment, since 'six million gassed' is not an accepted claim in the history books. Likewise, if Ahmadinejad endorses both denial as well as 9/11 conspiracy theories, he is functioning like a stupid person, even though in other aspects of his life, he is obviously very clever.

When we turn to the internet deniers and small fry (3) then we find a similarly mixed picture, with a high proportion of Hitler Huggers, while 90-95% are antisemitic. The remainder are contrarians. Most of the antisemites become Hitler Huggers despite their initial protestations, and the contrarians also become antisemites. Since the largest groups of internet deniers by far are to be found on white nationalist forums, then the proportion of Hitler Huggers is very high. The ones who escape the net and troll us here are mostly motivated by antisemitism.

Ambient stupidity levels among internet deniers, however, are through the roof. Internet deniers are increasingly functionally illiterate in the sense that fewer and fewer bother to read the books of the gurus. They are mostly 'converted' by watching YouTube videos, as with other conspiracy theories today. 95% of them do not show any signs of ever having read a conventional history book on the subject.

Based on the narrower sample of internet deniers at CODOH forum and on several other forums, it is my considered opinion that approximately 25% of internet deniers are in fact, apocalyptically stupid. Many of the remainder must also be considered at least nominally stupid, with a minority displaying real intelligence and real learning.

The passive audience, meanwhile, is likely to be disproportionately composed of Hitler Huggers since the only reliable source of advertising and book promotion for denial is to be found in the white nationalist, neo-Nazi milieu. As the passive audience don't pipe up to voice their denial, they are obviously to be considered smarter than the ones that do.
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I think you missed two categories:

5) Hardcore conspiracy theorists, who don´t really like Hitler or hate the Jews as such, but who swallow Holocaust denial anyway because, you know, conspiracy...

6) Ignorant people who have never even heard of, much less seen for themselves, the evidence for the Holocaust, and thus believe the deniers when they hear that the Holocaust is a Jewish/Western/whatever hoax. You won´t find those on the internet in any numbers, but I´d be willing to wager that in countries with less thorough and unbiased historical education, less widespread internet access etc the bulk of those who don´t believe the Holocaust happened are these, especially among the less educated rural population.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Thank goodness there is only one category of Holocaust charlatans.

1. Delusional verbose lying agenda driven fabricators.
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Didn´t your mommy teach you that it is uncivil to respond others´ well-reasoned and thoroughly supported arguments by barfing all over the table?
 
Clayton Moore said:
Thank goodness there is only one category of Holocaust charlatans.

1. Delusional verbose lying agenda driven fabricators.
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If that is the best you can do then don't bother. If you are hoping to convert any lurkers to your cause then you will have to do better than that. Somebody with one brain cell could be taken in by you, but that's about it.
 
SnakeTongue said:
How many open air pyres are necessary to burn 3900 bodies per day?

Anne Frank diary is not acceptable as reference.
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There's too much idiocy here even for a retired billionaire genius to combat, so I'll just focus on this revolting excerpt:
What on Earth made you mention the diary of Anne Frank as a reference here? Are you that insolent? Are you that dumb?
 
SnakeTongue said:
How many open air pyres are necessary to burn 3900 bodies per day?

Anne Frank diary is not acceptable as reference.
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And the answer is: as many as it took. Which is not very many when they looked similar to this:

picture.php


Keeping in mind that the pyre continues off frame to the right, how many people would you say a stacked up there?

The rest of you, *hush* -- I'm giving ST some rope.

Why *would* anyone even try to use The Diary of a Young Girl as evidence for this? As has been pointed out The Diary ends before she is sent off to the camps (the Nazis certainly had no problems identifying her and her family as untermenschen).

Now that you've brought her up, though: any ideas on what she had done to deserve the treatment she got at the hands of the Nazis?
 
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Clayton Moore said:
On page 498 In table 8.31 I see 789,000 corpses and a total weight of 14,951,550. I see a number 18.95. It seems that the average corpse weight is 18.95 as

18.95 X 789,000 = 14,951,550


So what is the unit of measure of the 18.95?
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No, what is the second baseman.
 
The Dark Lord said:
I wonder how many Holocaust deniers are Hitler huggers and how many are just really stupid. Those are the only two answers, of course. Not to imply that they are mutually exclusive.
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You have a third category of people who latch on to Holocuast denial because they will latch on to anything that is "Anti Establishment" and "Edgy". Many of these also qualify for the "really stupid" category.
 
Nick Terry said:
Oh, there are masses of online sources where you can look freely into statistics, details, documents, testimonies and more.

Now please READ this post before fisking it. Read ALL of it to the end. And the next post.

I would suggest you start with Yad Vashem and digest every single article/document/source that is available on their site. The Holocaust Resource Center has numerous documents, articles and other items
http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/holocaust/resource_center/index.asp

The index for Righteous among Nations, for example, includes the following

Total Sources (by media type):
Artifact Collection 28
Diaries and Letters 1
Documents 1
Lexicon Entries 64
Photographs 45
Research 8
Testimonies 7
Works of Art 1

Total Sources 155

This category will provide masses of information about how some few Jews survived, how they avoided detection, and by implication how others were caught.
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In a world of total moral collapse there was a small minority who mustered extraordinary courage to uphold human values.

(...)

Providing false papers and false identities - in order for Jews to assume the identity of non-Jews they needed false papers and assistance in establishing an existence under an assumed identity. (...)

Smuggling and assisting Jews to escape – some rescuers helped Jews get out of a zone of special danger in order to escape to a less dangerous location. (...)

http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/righteous/about.asp​

That is the information you want to me "digest"?

When the matter is to save the Jews during the World War II, forgery, falsification, fraud, treachery and deceit are presented as "human values" in "a world of total moral collapse".

Scientifically disgusting.

A source of information with no concern to ethical impartiality.

Nick Terry said:
Another category is 'the Local Population', divided into several sections. One section deals with 'perpetrators and murderers'

The same information is available on Wikipedia in condensed form; careful surfing and following of links will arrive at the same results.

And there are also independent websites discussing the same issues. One archived site is called 'Saving Jews' and deals with Poland.
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(...) Large numbers of Jews were betrayed and even murdered by their neighbors. The state apparatus in many of Germany's satellites and allies helped the Germans, at least to some extent, in carrying out their policy of discrimination and murder.

(...)

Diaries and Letters 11
Documents 12
Lexicon Entries 68
Photographs 24
Research 10
Testimonies 1
Works of Art 2

http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/holocaust/resource_center/item.asp?gate=2-51

by Chaim Chefer
I hear this title and it makes me think
About the people who saved me.
I ask and ask “Oh, my dear God,
Could I have done the same thing?
In a sea of hate stood my home,
Could I shelter a foreign son in my home?
Would I be willing along with my family
Constantly be threatened by certain evil?
Sleepless dark nights watching out for noise
Hearing footsteps of certain evil.
Would I be able to understand every sign,
Would I be ready for this, could I walk like this
Among those who would betray
Not one day, not one week, but so many years!

http://web.archive.org/web/20080206114319/http://www.savingjews.org​

Where is the numerical data?

Diaries, letters, documents, lexicon, photographs, research, testimonies and work of arts are not source of numerical data.

I will remind you what is statistics:

the practice or science of collecting and analyzing numerical data in large quantities, especially for the purpose of inferring proportions in a whole from those in a representative sample.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/statistics?region=us&q=statistics​

Nick Terry said:
The thing you'll have to get over pretty rapidly is looking for a single source since you are dealing with events that took place on the territory of 25 contemporary nation-states. It has been obvious since the 1940s that events unfolded differently depending on the territory in question, because of differences in culture, politics, economics, social structure, wartime conditions, and the degree of ideological fervour of the occupying Nazis or their local pro-Nazi collaborators, as well as the background level of antisemitism.
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I guess the "single" source you suggest is the Yad Vashem Internet page...

Nick Terry said:
I gave some examples from France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Poland up-thread. Obviously, each of these countries has its own encyclopedia entries, its own websites dedicated to the issues involved, and its own scholarly literature.

For example, the basic facts about the Holocaust in the Netherlands are summarised perfectly accurately in Wikipedia's entry on the history of the Jews in the Netherlands. The entry gives some perfectly decent online web pages as sources, which in turn refer to other sources, which in turn refer to primary sources. That's just how the world is with any subject in history.

Or you can continue googling, and will come across other sites, with the caveat that a lot of stuff isn't going to show up in an English keyword search, because duh, the sources will be in Dutch.

If you ask nicely, our Dutch members here - there are several participating in the discussion -will direct you to various sites, sources and materials about the Holocaust in the Netherlands. The Dutch research institute NIOD has scanned large amounts of documents from Westerbork which document the deportations; there are demographic studies, studies showing variations in the regions, and one can also read the standard work on the Holocaust in the Netherlands by Jacob Presser online, in Dutch.
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I got it:

Read the data from A which interpreted the data from B which interpreted the data from C which do not know from where the data come from.

Nick Terry said:
Alternatively, you can simply order Bob Moore, Victims and Survivors, and get a really good summary of all the issues.

Or, you can order Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of European Jews, in any edition other than the student edition (which is overly condensed), and read his chapter on the Netherlands, and also read the chapters on other countries, since Hilberg gives very good summaries of the bureaucratic procedures involved.
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No, no orders. I am not willing to financially support fictional story-telling.

Nick Terry said:
By this stage, you should have realised that the Nuremberg records, in addition to the Eichmann trial records, are online, and since these contain a very great many answers to your questions, they can be read, too.
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Data from a show trial which did not have regards to technical examination of the evidence is not statically acceptable.

Data from a witness which was illegally kidnapped and deported to Israel is not statically acceptable.

The margin of error in the data of such sources is grotesque.

Nick Terry said:
You really have two choices. One, you can reconstruct the massive research effort of others yourself with free materials, or two, you can order a few books from a library or bookshop, and benefit from the fact that you are asking questions which have pretty much already been answered. The freebie route will take a little longer.

Either route requires careful study and the use of multiple sources.
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Either route require the data, which you could not provide.
 
SnakeTongue said:
Data from a witness which was illegally kidnapped and deported to Israel is not statically acceptable.
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Why not? Please present an argument against using such evidence that would stand up to logical analysis.
 
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