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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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It remembers me that I post a wrong calculation many posts ago...

This time, I will correct myself.

The Nazis constantly searched for more efficient means of extermination. At the Auschwitz camp in Poland, they conducted experiments with Zyklon B (previously used for fumigation) by gassing some 600 Soviet prisoners of war and 250 ill prisoners in September 1941. Zyklon B pellets, converted to lethal gas when exposed to air. They proved the quickest gassing method and were chosen as the means of mass murder at Auschwitz. At the height of the deportations, up to 6,000 Jews were gassed each day at Auschwitz.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005220

Now the question: how much corpses was the crematorium able to burn per day?

Some indication of the actual capacity of the crematoria may be found in a letter from the firm of Topf & Söhne to the Mauthausen concentration camp. It states that in the “coke-fuelled Topf dual-muffle cremation ovens… about ten to thirty-five corpses” could be cremated “in about ten hours” and that as many could be “cremated daily without overloading the ovens” even if the “cremations took place one after the other, day and night.”
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=S-o7AAAAMAAJ&q="leichen+zur"#search_anchor

Let's suppose that there was 5 ovens in 5 buildings in full operation!

6000 - (((35/10)*24)*5*5) = 3900

3900 bodies for open air pyres without any interruption.

How many open air pyres are necessary to burn 3900 bodies per day?

Anne Frank diary is not acceptable as reference.

There weren't enough hours in a day to burn the alleged millions of bodies to ash. A pathetic fabrication. It's on the same level of fabrication as Eli Wiesel's nonexistent tattoo and Spielberg's The Last Days.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyMVWVBmGVo
 
So you're not only ignoring ANTPogo refuting your smoking gun, you're ignoring discussing that you're ignoring ANTPogo refuting your smoking gun, in favor of, yep, baseless incredulity.

You do realize that with those pyres, at that rate, working through the weekends, that's less than a year's work to burn the bodies?

Not to mention that Clay's implied claim was that no one was burned, period. Not that the historically-accepted rate was unsustainable, that no Nazi one cremated humans, period.

Funny that. Your truth requires hundreds of thousands of people to disappear without ever trying to contact their relatives. And the "died from diseases" variation still requires something to happen to those dead people. Hmmm...
 
Anne Frank diary is not acceptable as reference.

Why would you use as a reference for anything that happened at the camps a diary with a last entry dated several days before her capture?

Are you really that ignorant of the material? Or are you pretending that everyone else is being ignorant -- jumping on the "just because Speilburg makes a tear-jerker doesn't make it so" bandwagon?
 
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IIRC, was not "open air cremation is teh impossibulz!" raised before, with the British mad cow pyres offered as a demonstration that it's *quite* possible?
 
IIRC, was not "open air cremation is teh impossibulz!" raised before, with the British mad cow pyres offered as a demonstration that it's *quite* possible?
Yes, several times. For reference, HC Blog's Roberto Muehlenkamp has written extensively on the topic of pyres.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogs...r-treblinka-holocaust.html#uds-search-results

Cattle:
"Another way to estimate the burning time of a pyre is to look at the times required for mass burning of carcasses when more or less competently handled. (p.494)"
In a variety of file formats here:
http://archive.org/details/BelzecSobiborTreblinka.HolocaustDenialAndOperationReinhard.ACritique
 
Religion is a proxy for racial persecution?

noun (plural proxies)
1 the authority to represent someone else, especially in voting:
they may register to vote by proxy
- a person authorized to act on behalf of another.
- a document authorizing a person to vote on another’s behalf.
2a figure that can be used to represent the value of something in a calculation:
the use of a US wealth measure as a proxy for the true worldwide measure


http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/proxy?region=us&q=proxy

So the German national party convinced the German population and other foreign population to denounce the Judaism believers because they were not an acceptable race.

Astonishing.
You get an F- for reading comprehension. I argued that the question "who is a religious Jews" is an acceptable proxy for the question "who is a racial Jew": the number of false positives is negligible, and the number of false negatives is small. And the question is easier to answer where religion is documented in, e.g., the civic registry. I didn't say anything about "convincing the [...] population".

It is accusations as well of persecution based on sexual behaviour.
Could you rephrase that in English?

Somewhere it is affirmed that Gypsies were persecuted.
Settela_steinbach.jpg



These persecutions were also made on the basis of racial hatred?
The persecution of Roma and Sinti? Yes.

How that is documented?
I suggest you answer BSO's question. You might learn from the search for an answer.
 
Religion is a proxy for racial persecution?

noun (plural proxies)
1 the authority to represent someone else, especially in voting:
they may register to vote by proxy
- a person authorized to act on behalf of another.
- a document authorizing a person to vote on another’s behalf.
2a figure that can be used to represent the value of something in a calculation:
the use of a US wealth measure as a proxy for the true worldwide measure


http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/proxy?region=us&q=proxy

It's funny, ddt is not a native speaker of English to my knowledge, but wrote a perfectly comprehensible phrase, 'religion is a great proxy', which may not be ideal, but was easily understood. So along comes another non-native speaker of English, and doesn't get it. Ah well.

So the German national party convinced the German population and other foreign population to denounce the Judaism believers because they were not an acceptable race.

Astonishing.

It is accusations as well of persecution based on sexual behaviour.

So it seems you haven't got the first clue about Europe from 1939-45, much less Europe from 1870-1945.

Somewhere it is affirmed that Gypsies were persecuted.

These persecutions were also made on the basis of racial hatred?

In which countries are you talking about? The Nazis and their Axis allies persecuted Gypsies in a variety of countries. Are you really going to ask whether Germany was identical to Romania here? Are you really that clueless?

How that is documented?

With documents, of course. Which live in archives, which are then visited by historians, who cite the documents in their books, giving the archival file code in their endnotes or footnotes, which are then read by people who are actually interested in learning about a subject, who then notice the accepted referencing system and realise they can locate the self-same document in an archive, if they are researching themselves, or suspicious about the writer. However, the suspicious person actually has to go to the archive, since otherwise the citation is universally recognised as proof that the document can be found, based on several centuries of scholarship following this basic method.

Are you saying that there are no documents proving that people were offered rewards for denouncing Jews?

What else are there supposedly not documents for? We might as well have it out in the open, to see just how clueless you really are.
 
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Yes, several times. For reference, HC Blog's Roberto Muehlenkamp has written extensively on the topic of pyres.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogs...r-treblinka-holocaust.html#uds-search-results

Cattle:
"Another way to estimate the burning time of a pyre is to look at the times required for mass burning of carcasses when more or less competently handled. (p.494)"
In a variety of file formats here:
http://archive.org/details/BelzecSobiborTreblinka.HolocaustDenialAndOperationReinhard.ACritique


On page 498 In table 8.31 I see 789,000 corpses and a total weight of 14,951,550. I see a number 18.95. It seems that the average corpse weight is 18.95 as

18.95 X 789,000 = 14,951,550


So what is the unit of measure of the 18.95?
 
On page 498 In table 8.31 I see 789,000 corpses and a total weight of 14,951,550. I see a number 18.95. It seems that the average corpse weight is 18.95 as

18.95 X 789,000 = 14,951,550


So what is the unit of measure of the 18.95?

Try reading the thing for comprehension instead of for trolling jollies.
 
See where the city, the prefix "den", and the first three digits of the year are preprinted on the document? This means the typist who actually typed the document would only actually need to enter in the day, the month, and the last digit of the year.

[pedantry mode on]
The word "den" - what SnakeTongue called a "prefix" - is actually the accusative case singular masculine of the definite article "der" ("the"). Why the accusative? Because adverbial clauses of time are always in the accusative in German. Likewise, the dot behind the number in "29." makes it an ordinal (like "29th" in English) instead of a cardinal number. It's just the way dates have always been written in German, there's nothing especially Nazi about that.

And my hat off to you, ANTPogo, for taking the effort to debunk these detailed claims about this or that document.
 
I wonder how many Holocaust deniers are Hitler huggers and how many are just really stupid. Those are the only two answers, of course. Not to imply that they are mutually exclusive.
 
It is, because clearly you haven't actually done the usual thing of reading the chapters from start to finish, as you'd find the answer is given repeatedly, along with the reasoning leading to the figure. You have to start at about at least p.458.

You don't know. Fine. :toiletpap
 
I wonder how many Holocaust deniers are Hitler huggers and how many are just really stupid. Those are the only two answers, of course. Not to imply that they are mutually exclusive.

That depends on the Holocaust denier, of course. Deniers need to be divided into four categories:

1) gurus, those who write books denying the Holocaust (like Butz)
2) cheerleaders, other deniers who write things or make statements denying the Holocaust (like Ahmadinejad, or David Duke) but who contribute no new ideas to the belief system
3) internet deniers, who post on internet forums denying the Holocaust (like Stormfront, or CODOH, or our small gaggle here), and other minor small fry who maybe write letters to mainstream media outlets or make a pro-denial comment on a blog
4) passive deniers, who have read the websites or books and continue to do so, but who have not yapped about it on the internet or in public - i.e. the overall market for Holocaust denial literature and propaganda.

The gurus (1) number about 100 since 1945, and about 33%-50% can be considered overt Hitler huggers. The rest are antisemitic. There are virtually no exceptions to that rule, with Bradley Smith being one of the few, since he got sucked in because of his libertarianism. He has however now absorbed passively the antisemitism of the rest of the crowd. So approximately 99 out of 100 gurus are either Hitler huggers or antisemites, or both.

Of the 100 gurus, none are so stupid they can't write a book, obviously, but all of them make assertions which are either based on logical fallacies or which are simply plain wrong due to ignorance or poor reasoning.

There are proportionately far fewer Hitler Huggers among the cheerleaders (2) since you have to factor in the Islamists, none of whom have risen to guru status, as well as the fringe Christian sects. But for every Ahmadinejad there is a David Duke or Alex Linder or Harold Covington, so you can figure 1/3 Hitler Huggers among this group, and pretty much 99% being antisemites. Stupidity is again relative, but when Bishop Williamson came out and babbled about 'six million gassed', that is a stupid comment, since 'six million gassed' is not an accepted claim in the history books. Likewise, if Ahmadinejad endorses both denial as well as 9/11 conspiracy theories, he is functioning like a stupid person, even though in other aspects of his life, he is obviously very clever.

When we turn to the internet deniers and small fry (3) then we find a similarly mixed picture, with a high proportion of Hitler Huggers, while 90-95% are antisemitic. The remainder are contrarians. Most of the antisemites become Hitler Huggers despite their initial protestations, and the contrarians also become antisemites. Since the largest groups of internet deniers by far are to be found on white nationalist forums, then the proportion of Hitler Huggers is very high. The ones who escape the net and troll us here are mostly motivated by antisemitism.

Ambient stupidity levels among internet deniers, however, are through the roof. Internet deniers are increasingly functionally illiterate in the sense that fewer and fewer bother to read the books of the gurus. They are mostly 'converted' by watching YouTube videos, as with other conspiracy theories today. 95% of them do not show any signs of ever having read a conventional history book on the subject.

Based on the narrower sample of internet deniers at CODOH forum and on several other forums, it is my considered opinion that approximately 25% of internet deniers are in fact, apocalyptically stupid. Many of the remainder must also be considered at least nominally stupid, with a minority displaying real intelligence and real learning.

The passive audience, meanwhile, is likely to be disproportionately composed of Hitler Huggers since the only reliable source of advertising and book promotion for denial is to be found in the white nationalist, neo-Nazi milieu. As the passive audience don't pipe up to voice their denial, they are obviously to be considered smarter than the ones that do.
 
You don't know. Fine. :toiletpap

I do know, but see no reason to repeat what has been laid out perfectly clearly over the length of a chapter written by one of my co-authors.

Get it through your thick skull that to criticise something properly - that includes the NIST report you have no doubt demonised elsewhere, or epidemiological studies of autism - you have to read them from start to finish, and not simply seagull through cherrypicking out a single point which you don't understand.
 
I do know, but see no reason to repeat what has been laid out perfectly clearly over the length of a chapter written by one of my co-authors.

Get it through your thick skull that to criticise something properly - that includes the NIST report you have no doubt demonised elsewhere, or epidemiological studies of autism - you have to read them from start to finish, and not simply seagull through cherrypicking out a single point which you don't understand.

What's the purpose of a chart that says 18.95 kg. is the average weight of 789,000 corpses?
 
That depends on the Holocaust denier, of course. Deniers need to be divided into four categories:

1) gurus, those who write books denying the Holocaust (like Butz)
2) cheerleaders, other deniers who write things or make statements denying the Holocaust (like Ahmadinejad, or David Duke) but who contribute no new ideas to the belief system
3) internet deniers, who post on internet forums denying the Holocaust (like Stormfront, or CODOH, or our small gaggle here), and other minor small fry who maybe write letters to mainstream media outlets or make a pro-denial comment on a blog
4) passive deniers, who have read the websites or books and continue to do so, but who have not yapped about it on the internet or in public - i.e. the overall market for Holocaust denial literature and propaganda.

The gurus (1) number about 100 since 1945, and about 33%-50% can be considered overt Hitler huggers. The rest are antisemitic. There are virtually no exceptions to that rule, with Bradley Smith being one of the few, since he got sucked in because of his libertarianism. He has however now absorbed passively the antisemitism of the rest of the crowd. So approximately 99 out of 100 gurus are either Hitler huggers or antisemites, or both.

Of the 100 gurus, none are so stupid they can't write a book, obviously, but all of them make assertions which are either based on logical fallacies or which are simply plain wrong due to ignorance or poor reasoning.

There are proportionately far fewer Hitler Huggers among the cheerleaders (2) since you have to factor in the Islamists, none of whom have risen to guru status, as well as the fringe Christian sects. But for every Ahmadinejad there is a David Duke or Alex Linder or Harold Covington, so you can figure 1/3 Hitler Huggers among this group, and pretty much 99% being antisemites. Stupidity is again relative, but when Bishop Williamson came out and babbled about 'six million gassed', that is a stupid comment, since 'six million gassed' is not an accepted claim in the history books. Likewise, if Ahmadinejad endorses both denial as well as 9/11 conspiracy theories, he is functioning like a stupid person, even though in other aspects of his life, he is obviously very clever.

When we turn to the internet deniers and small fry (3) then we find a similarly mixed picture, with a high proportion of Hitler Huggers, while 90-95% are antisemitic. The remainder are contrarians. Most of the antisemites become Hitler Huggers despite their initial protestations, and the contrarians also become antisemites. Since the largest groups of internet deniers by far are to be found on white nationalist forums, then the proportion of Hitler Huggers is very high. The ones who escape the net and troll us here are mostly motivated by antisemitism.

Ambient stupidity levels among internet deniers, however, are through the roof. Internet deniers are increasingly functionally illiterate in the sense that fewer and fewer bother to read the books of the gurus. They are mostly 'converted' by watching YouTube videos, as with other conspiracy theories today. 95% of them do not show any signs of ever having read a conventional history book on the subject.

Based on the narrower sample of internet deniers at CODOH forum and on several other forums, it is my considered opinion that approximately 25% of internet deniers are in fact, apocalyptically stupid. Many of the remainder must also be considered at least nominally stupid, with a minority displaying real intelligence and real learning.

The passive audience, meanwhile, is likely to be disproportionately composed of Hitler Huggers since the only reliable source of advertising and book promotion for denial is to be found in the white nationalist, neo-Nazi milieu. As the passive audience don't pipe up to voice their denial, they are obviously to be considered smarter than the ones that do.


Thank goodness there is only one category of Holocaust charlatans.

1. Delusional verbose lying agenda driven fabricators.
 
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