Gay Backlash against Mormons

[ShowerComic]

Ok, admittedly I'm not form California so I didn't see the original ad, and commentary, and I'm working backwords from the OpEd taking the other side in today's Herald:

Gay Sponsored Commercial -> Mormon's knock on Gay Couple's Door, force their way in, and take their wedding rings, and rip up their Marriage License.
(Hey a framed Marriage license - is this a Ketubah)
-- subtext: They are taking away your rights
-- Apparently a real commercial.

Fake Commercial: Jews break into your house steal your piggy bank, ransack the couch for loose change, say it's all going to fund the bailout.

---
At issue: Oh No: the Gay's are bashing Mormons, translation: Anti-Mormonism OK, compared to : the second: Anti-Semitism - Not OK.
That's the just of the Herald OpEd.
---
Problems I see:
-- First Prop 8 did take away rights, the commercial speaketh the truth, however unpleasent.

-- Second: It is not only Jews on Capital Hill, but all members, religious or not who vote on tax plans.

-- Jews on Capital Hill would be voting for the bailout to fund assorted organizations, not nessiarily to make themselves and only themselves rich.
--------
The two messages are not comparible.

Question: Is Faith a ShowStopper? Are people justified in using their Faith to take away the rights of others? That is what motivates the Mormons contribution. (Exagerated or not)
Personally I like what Jon Stewart said about it on the Daily Show:
"Funny thing about the Mormon's and Marriage..." (Paraphrased)

 

[Upchurch]

Are people justified in using their Faith to take away the rights of others?

no.

 

[Cleon]

The LDS church was actively involved in the Prop 8 campaign.

The Jewish community, as a whole, was not involved in the bailout. As far as I'm aware, no Jewish organization was involved in promoting it in any way.


The hypothetical commercial portrays an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory, that of Jews controlling the economy.

The real commercial portrays the reality of a religious organization, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, mobilizing its money and its membership to take away the rights of gay Californians.

The two are not comparable.


As I've said before...If LDS doesn't like being called an organization of hate-mongers and bigots, they shouldn't act like hate-mongers and bigots.

 

[Upchurch]

eta:
LDS Response:

 

[Alferd_Packer]

Am I the only one who was hoping that the guys would confiscate the cucumbers from the fridge?

That would have made that video an internet hit.

 

[ShowerComic]

Sidebar: Living where I have over the years, I have seen many advertisements for divorced Catholics, and other disillusioned Catholics to come back to more welcoming Catholic Churches in the area, despite the official decree of the Pope: No Divorce, No Premarital Sex, No artificial Birth Control etc.

translation: I don't know of any 'fundamentalist' Catholic sects which mindlessly follow any and all words of the Pope.

The LDS church was actively involved in the Prop 8 campaign.

Am I right that this is not the impression I get of Mormonism. Are all Mormons as a rule believers in the Mormon Dogma? Now consider the following video response by Michael Barber:



He states Prop 8 protects religious liberties. Only the popular ones yes?
The ones his particular church agrees with. Suppose a religion believes in say polygamy, it can't practice that belief under Prop 8. Yet if both monogamy and polygamy were legal, one could practice either.

Consider Porn: (you know it when you see it) If I find it inoffensive, while you find it offensive I can watch it, while you choose not to. Or forget porn, as an example, lets say no one is allowed to make Westerns, or play Country Music because I don't care for those genres.

 

[interwaff]

Anti-8 commercial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv_4A1RbA-o

Two "L-word" lesbians (entitled, demanding and clueless) live in a McMansion.

Two gayboy actors do a scripted christian-bashing act, behaving nothing like real mormons.

The ladies' reaction was not one of shock or violation, but of foot-stomping I'll-hold-my-breath anger. "We have rights!"

Gee, great argument.... These women don't want their "rights"... they just want everything.


Pro-8 commercial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75J3TN9Zzck

Two completely different gay guys are juxtaposed. One is the kind you work with at your job and feel much sympathy for. He's nice, warm, thoughtful, and wants what's best for his child.

The other gay guy is a snotty, sex-driven, "lifestyle" narcissist. Very easy to hate, and not because he is gay.

The genius of this commercial is this line: Maybe we should spend a little less time over at Megan's house...

This jerk would take away a child's friends for his political agenda. For his sexual conquests.

He has already come between his partner and some poor woman who one can presume is divorced or deserted somewhere. Now he's out to control this man's child.


I don't live in California. I do know how I would have voted from watching these ads.

 

[Cleon]

Am I right that this is not the impression I get of Mormonism. Are all Mormons as a rule believers in the Mormon Dogma? Now consider the following video response by Michael Barber:

Well...I generally use "Mormon" to describe believers (whether partial or complete) in the teachings of Joseph Smith. LDS is the largest Mormon organization by far, and is generally the group people think of when they talk about "the" Mormon church. (LDS is also the only one who sends those obnoxious door-to-door missionaries.)

There are other Mormon churches--the Communities of Christ, for one, as well as the much smaller polygamist sects like FLDS.

However, that's neither here nor there, as the commercial in question specifies the LDS organization as the one they're attacking.

He states Prop 8 protects religious liberties. Only the popular ones yes?

No. In no way does Prop 8 protect religious liberties, whether popular or not. That is a false statement, a strawman thrown out by bigots.

Prop 8 addressed the secular institution of marriage. It did not require the LDS church to perform or even recognize same-sex marriages. That is their right, if their religion so teaches.

It is a church (or mosque, or synagogue)'s right to perform marriages based on their religious belief. If they don't believe in interracial marriage, they're not required to perform them*.

However, that belief extends only insofar as their religion is concerned. Once they start dictating that belief outside their particular religion or sect, they have no business claiming "freedom of religion," as they are removing that freedom from others.



* Side note: In point of fact, synagogues that will allow mixed marriages (between a Jew and non-Jew) are pretty tough to find. In the city I grew up in, Pittsburgh, only one synagogue would agree to perform mixed marriages--and they made the couple sign a document stating that any children would be raised Jewish. Most Jews who marry non-Jews wind up having the wedding outside of a synagogue.

 

[Cleon]

The ladies' reaction was not one of shock or violation, but of foot-stomping I'll-hold-my-breath anger. "We have rights!"

Gee, great argument....

Yeah, I'd say "we have rights" isa pretty good argument.

I don't live in California. I do know how I would have voted from watching these ads.

...Poorly.

 

[interwaff]

Yeah, I'd say "we have rights" is a pretty good argument.

right: n. 1. that which one wants really badly. 2. anything.

 

[Cleon]

right: n. 1. that which one wants really badly. 2. anything.

No.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

Among the natural rights of the Colonists are these: First, a right to life; Secondly, to liberty; Thirdly, to property; together with the right to support ...

or..

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

 

[Tricky]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Thomas Jefferson was being rhetorical, but in truth, he was completely wrong. There are no such things as "inalienable" rights. Rights are defined by the legal documents that your governing system uses. I suspect TJ knew this, as he kept slaves, thereby violating his own statement.

Certainly you can argue that certain people and groups should have rights, but until the legal documents are emplaced, they do not.

 

[MattusMaximus]

To show the Morons - err, I mean Mormons - how it feels to have people trample all over your individual rights, we should do the following...

1. Have Mormonism declared illegal and unconstitutional, thereby stripping all Mormons of their U.S. citizenship.

2. Once #1 is accomplished, deport them all. To where, I don't care, but preferably somewhere with a crappy climate and even crappier people who like to kill outsiders in spectacularly gory & painful ways.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know the old standby: "But the Mormons have had to deal with soooo much discrimination against their cult - err, I mean religion - in the past!"

Well, my answer to that is this: "Not nearly enough, it's time for a new generation to feel the love."

(In truth, I jest - actually one of my best friends is a Mormon. Just venting my spleen )

 

[Puppycow]

At issue: Oh No: the Gay's are bashing Mormons, translation: Anti-Mormonism OK, compared to : the second: Anti-Semitism - Not OK.

By their logic it would also be wrong to be "Anti-" Scientology, People's Temple, Heaven's Gate, Aum Shinrikyo, Westboro Baptist Church (Fred Phelps), Branch Davidians, etc., etc.

Which Herald is this, btw. Got a link?

Because, you know, it's wrong to criticise any religion for anything, ever.

Actually I find the comparison to be offensive and anti-Semitic.

 

[Lonewulf]

Pro-8 commercial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75J3TN9Zzck

I like one of the responses to this video.

It is about children. I sure as hell don't want my kids to think it's ok to stick their dicks in some other guys butt just because Hollywood made it sound cool. Men should be men stop pretending to be women. It's time to stand up for future generations, and protect what is right. Be gay all you want, but keep it in the closet. What's next? Freedom to smoke crack where ever you like. Hide it man, nobody cared until you wanted to be like us. You wanted to be different and now you are.

Sigh.

So, loving someone of the same sex is "smoking crack".

 

[Lonewulf]

Anti-8 commercial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv_4A1RbA-o

Two "L-word" lesbians (entitled, demanding and clueless) live in a McMansion.

Right, because having any wealth is suddenly a crime...

Two gayboy actors do a scripted christian-bashing act, behaving nothing like real mormons.

Nothing like the mormons who worked hard to keep atheists and homosexuals out of the boy scouts, partly under the mythology that homosexuality = child molestation and atheism = evil? Get out!

I'll just say that it's amusing how you say they "behave nothing like real mormons". I'll bring this up later.

The ladies' reaction was not one of shock or violation, but of foot-stomping I'll-hold-my-breath anger. "We have rights!"

Right, because having your rights trampled over can't possibly lead to anger!

Gee, great argument.... These women don't want their "rights"... they just want everything.

Being recognized as being married is wanting "everything"? What the hell kind of world do you live on? I'm here on Earth; come visit us sometime.

Pro-8 commercial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75J3TN9Zzck

Two completely different gay guys are juxtaposed. One is the kind you work with at your job and feel much sympathy for. He's nice, warm, thoughtful, and wants what's best for his child.

The other gay guy is a snotty, sex-driven, "lifestyle" narcissist. Very easy to hate, and not because he is gay.

Sex-driven?

The genius of this commercial is this line: Maybe we should spend a little less time over at Megan's house...

This jerk would take away a child's friends for his political agenda. For his sexual conquests.

Sure, and I'm sure that you'd also be against all of the parents that won't let their kids see other kids who have gay/bi/lesbian parents, as I've heard in actual REAL LIFE cases.

Nice to know how easily you fall for straw men, though. Apparently, doing a bit of acting as mormons isn't okay, but doing it as homosexuals is.

Well, whatever it takes for you gay-bashers to win, right?

I don't live in California. I do know how I would have voted from watching these ads.

I don't live in California. But I would have definitely voted against Prop 8, for the same reason I would have before these commercials:

Because there is absolutely no good arguments against gay marriage. Period. End of question.

The rest is BS.

 

[Dr Adequate]

So basically their argument is: "You're persecuting us by complaining about us persecuting you!"

 

[Puppycow]

So basically their argument is: "You're persecuting us by complaining about us persecuting you!"

Pithy. Nominated.

 

[Lonewulf]

So basically their argument is: "You're persecuting us by complaining about us persecuting you!"

Yeah, but what else is new?

I remember one of those christian debates way back, where there was a three-way debate on one of those news shows about atheists (they didn't invite an actual atheist, naturally!)

The "Jewish" woman said, paraphrased, "I just want to have the freedom to put prayer into schools (restricting the freedom of the students)... that's all!"

Even if that wasn't exactly what she said, it certainly was the meaning.

The whole "freedom to persecute your freedoms!" is nothing new.