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Gage's next debate

ETA:
Here is a commercial Kaoline formulation:
"Supreme" by Imeris (Data sheet)

Its particle size ranges from 10 micrometers down to 300 nanometers.
"They don't make paint out of extremely expensive nano particles"? Ha! That is exactly what this product "Supreme" is all about: "Key Applications: Water based Decorative Paints, Protective & OEM Coatings, Printing Ink, Adhesives & Sealants, Building/Construction, Chemicals"
 
Of course, Christopher7 has had this all pointed out to him before. His usual response is to vanish from the forum for a few weeks, then come back when everyone's forgotten that they told him.

Dave
 
Playing Devil's Advocate again

So, Chris 7, you have a shot at immortality. In my second draft of my Gage rebuttal, I paraphrase Ryan Mackey's assertion that nanothermites are not very explosive, then I cite your reference:

In rebutting Ryan Mackey, a 911 Truth advocate showed me a paper titled, “Synthesis and Characterization of Mixed Metal Oxide Nanocomposite Energetic Materials,” which says,

"We have developed a new method of making nanostructured energetic materials, specifically explosives, propellants, and pyrotechnics, using sol-gel chemistry... proven successful in preparing metal nanocomposites such as aluminum.”

This is evidence that nanothermites can be made to be explosive.
https://e-reports-ext.llnl.gov/pdf/307362.pdf

I can’t resolve the question of whether nanothermites have can be high explosives. But if an experiment could prove the presence of nanothermites in the World Trade Center dust, then that argument would have no weight anyway, because there simply would be no benign reason for the appearance of tons of nanothermites in the World Trade Center. So looking at the thermitic experiment itself, here are reasons both for and against accepting the argument for nanothermites...

I also have a devil's advocate question: Kevin Ryan said that the strong spike of energy in his experiment shows an explosive reaction. In this thread there was some back-and forth about how there should be two spikes if both carbon-based and thermite-based reactions were occurring, but someone else suggested the carbon-based spike would immediately trigger the thermitic spike so one spike could account for both. But Kevin's assertion of sharp spike = explosives has not been dealt with. Would a fire igniting office supplies, papers and curtains have this steep spike? My intuition says no, it would spike more slowly.

And now for a devil's advocate response to Dave: It seems that Chris 7 has been doing a pretty good job of estimating the 4 million gallons of water with citations. Tri has said that the FDNY firefighters knew from thermal images where the hot spots were and tried to concentrate their water there. He also said that with fires deep under the rubble, they couldn't focus the water right onto the fires. Even so, they could pour water into the general vicinity for hours and days. C7 I'm not sure what the point is with all this... if you add up all the floors on fire in all three buildings, it came to some 40-50 acres of floor space (my rough guess). Buried deep down where firefighters couldn't get to it. Seems like a whole lot of fire to put out, standard or thermitic either way.

Oh, and your claim that no one would confess to being part of a mass murder... didn't an American soldier just confess to shooting a Taliban fighter in the head, like two days ago? Plus, I keep hearing that not everyone who participated in the "preparation" may have known what they were doing. But afterwards, are you saying not one person would come out and say "I painted steel beams in the Twin Towers for four months, and now I think I may have been painting on nanothermite!" Are you saying no worker ever told their girlfriend about the weird stuff they were doing? I say it's too big a conspiracy to hide in this era of WikiLeaks and blogs.

This is not 1943 in secretive Los Alamos when we were fighting a major war and secrecy was easier to achieve anyway. This is a mass murder of our own fellow Americans, treason against our country... I'm sorry, I believe that at least some military people, intelligence officers, first responders and firefighters who have the courage to put their lives on the line for their country and their community would not be quiet if they knew for a fact this had happened. Call me asinine or stupid or ignorant, but I have enough faith in the better side of human nature to be confident that someone would have the guts to stand up and speak.
 
Of course, Christopher7 has had this all pointed out to him before. His usual response is to vanish from the forum for a few weeks, then come back when everyone's forgotten that they told him.

Dave

Silly tactic,we have long memories.
 
And now for a devil's advocate response to Dave: It seems that Chris 7 has been doing a pretty good job of estimating the 4 million gallons of water with citations. Tri has said that the FDNY firefighters knew from thermal images where the hot spots were and tried to concentrate their water there. He also said that with fires deep under the rubble, they couldn't focus the water right onto the fires. Even so, they could pour water into the general vicinity for hours and days. C7 I'm not sure what the point is with all this... if you add up all the floors on fire in all three buildings, it came to some 40-50 acres of floor space (my rough guess). Buried deep down where firefighters couldn't get to it. Seems like a whole lot of fire to put out, standard or thermitic either way.

Chris 7 is drawing on his vast experience as a firefighter and his encyclopedic knowledge of explosives,not to mention his long career as a metallurgist. Real renaissance men,these truthers.
 
...
This is evidence that nanothermites can be made to be explosive.

Yes, can, but as Harrit and the bunch write explicitly on page 29:
Bentham-paper said:
The red material does burn quickly ... but determination of the burn rate of the red material may help to classify this as a slow or fast explosive...
...or, indeed, as no explosive. The red head of a match burns quickly when struck, but it isn's an explosive. They really are saying that they have NOT determined if the burn rate qualifies the substance as an explosive at all.

So all if's of a Devil's Advocate are inadmissable: Back to the lab with y'all! Speculation isn't science, isn't fact, isn't evidence for anything.

...
I also have a devil's advocate question: Kevin Ryan said that the strong spike of energy in his experiment shows an explosive reaction. In this thread there was some back-and forth about how there should be two spikes if both carbon-based and thermite-based reactions were occurring, but someone else suggested the carbon-based spike would immediately trigger the thermitic spike so one spike could account for both. But Kevin's assertion of sharp spike = explosives has not been dealt with. Would a fire igniting office supplies, papers and curtains have this steep spike? My intuition says no, it would spike more slowly.
...

I'd ask Sunstealer or The Almond directly, maybe via PM. They know this stuff better than anyone else here.

However, the strong spike is not indicative of supersonic speeds. In a DSC, heat is raised slowly at a constant rate that is typically something like 10°C/minute. It looks like a steep thing as plotted on paper, but this heat realease did not take place in a matter of milliseconds, but rather of seconds.
The max hight of the peak, around 23 W/g, is indicative of a fast, but not explosive reaction. 1W = 1J/s. If the material reacted explosively, and if the DSC could meaure this reaction in real time, we'd expect it to react in less than 1ms, releasing 1.5kJ/g in that time, or >1.5 million W/s. (This is layman's reasoning at this point, so it's on par with what Gage, Ryan or Sarns are saying. Like I said, ask the pros).
 
How can a smoldering debris pile burn for months when millions of gallons of water have been applied?

Try again. And no more Stundies.

How long does thermite burn for to make LITTLE river of steel some months later?

How much thermite would have been needed to still be causing small rivers of steel some months later?
 
And now for a devil's advocate response to Dave: It seems that Chris 7 has been doing a pretty good job of estimating the 4 million gallons of water with citations. Tri has said that the FDNY firefighters knew from thermal images where the hot spots were and tried to concentrate their water there. He also said that with fires deep under the rubble, they couldn't focus the water right onto the fires. Even so, they could pour water into the general vicinity for hours and days. C7 I'm not sure what the point is with all this... if you add up all the floors on fire in all three buildings, it came to some 40-50 acres of floor space (my rough guess). Buried deep down where firefighters couldn't get to it. Seems like a whole lot of fire to put out, standard or thermitic either way.

Once the burning debris from those 40-50 acres was in the rubble pile, it could transmit heat to the debris from the remaining floors too. And, as Tri pointed out, there's no way of knowing where the water went when they put it on the rubble pile. A figure of 4 million gallons of water that "percolated through the debris in the first 10 days and collected at the bottom of the Bathtub" is a good starting point, but once all that water had collected at the bottom of the Bathtub it wasn't doing much to put the fires out.

But another important point to look at is this: Christopher7 isn't trying to pretend that the rubble pile wasn't hot. He's trying to claim that burning rubble wasn't the source of that heat. So, in effect, he's claiming that there was something else that was generating all that heat, and his implication is that the something else was thermite. So he's arguing that, because the fires couldn't have burned for weeks and generated enormous amounts of heat despite the water poured on them, then thermite must have burned for the same amount of time and generated the same amount of heat. How much thermite is he talking about? I wouldn't know how to put a number to it, and I'm sure Christopher7 will do anything to avoid doing so; but if the water poured on the rubble pile wasn't enough to remove the heat generated by the thermite, then the amount of thermite present must have been enough to heat four million gallons of water to boiling point and then convert it to steam.

I'd quite like someone to check my arithmetic here. 4,000,000 gallons is about 16,000,000 litres, or 16,000 tonnes of water. Boiling that much water requires 2260 joules per gram, and heating requires 4.2 joules per gram per degree centigrade, so a grand total of about 90,000 gigajoules is needed to heat it from 20 to 100ºC and then boil it. Thermite has an energy density of about 4kJ per gram, or 4GJ per tonne, so over 20,000 tonnes of thermite would be needed to boil off all the water. That's rather a lot of thermite to be left over after the collapse, it seems to me. But I may have misplaced a decimal point there, so someone please check.

But, Christopher7 may say, the thermite doesn't need to have boiled off all that water. Well, I don't think you can stop a thermite reaction by pouring water on it, unlike a fire, so either there was enough thermite to boil it all off and continue heating the rubble pile [1], or not all the water got to the thermite to remove heat from it. But then, by the same token, we can say that not all the water got to the fire either.

Bottom line: For the heat source to have been thermite, there has to have been more thermite - a lot more - in the rubble pile than all other combustibles that were present in two 110 storey buildings. That's way beyond ridiculous.

And, of course, the thermite had to react slowly, to keep generating heat for months. And that's just plain impossible. You can make a fire burn slowly by restricting the oxygen supply - in fact, that's what happened in the rubble pile - but thermite contains its own oxygen. Once it starts reacting, it won't stop, and it's finished in seconds.

Christopher7's objections are ragged enough when he's just trying to pick holes in the generally accepted account of 9/11. When you look at what he's trying to suggest as an alternative explanation, though, it's not just ragged; it's all the way into the territory of insanity.

Dave

[1] By the way, that was 20,000 tons of thermite just to deal with the water poured on the rubble pile. I haven't left any to heat the rubble; you'll have to add that to the total amount of thermite that had to be there. At this stage, I'm almost hoping I have made a mathematical error, because things are just getting ridiculous.
 
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...He's trying to claim that burning rubble wasn't the source of that heat. So, in effect, he's claiming that there was something else that was generating all that heat, and his implication is that the something else was thermite. So he's arguing that, because the fires couldn't have burned for weeks and generated enormous amounts of heat despite the water poured on them, then thermite must have burned for the same amount of time and generated the same amount of heat. How much thermite is he talking about? I wouldn't know how to put a number to it, and I'm sure Christopher7 will do anything to avoid doing so; but if the water poured on the rubble pile wasn't enough to remove the heat generated by the thermite, then the amount of thermite present must have been enough to heat four million gallons of water to boiling point and then convert it to steam.
...

A different calculation:
Nano-thermite releases 1.5kJ/g
Most officr combustibles release between 8 and 35 kJ/g.
Let's say a very conservative average of 15 kJ/g.

So if all the combustibles weren't enough, then 10 times the mass of office combustibles in thermite would also not be enough.
They'd have to pack more unreacted thermite into the rubble piles than ten times the mass of all combustibles on all 116 floors of each tower. That's ... a lot. A whole lot.


Or, to put it even more drastically:

Humans release about 9 kJ/g - 6 times as much as nano-thermite.
There were about 2500 humans who burned in the rubble piles, having a total mass of 175 tons (assuming 70kg/person). To equal the heat release of 2500 humans in the rubble pile, you'd have to put in 1.000 tons of nano-thermite, or nearly 10 tons per floor.

Unreal.
 
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And tires have been known to burn for a matter of weeks and months. I'm fairly sure the drivers don't remove their tires after they park.


I once lived close to a huge tire dump, it caught fire and burned for months. They finally had to use bulldozers to push the pile apart to get it out.
 
...
It appears to me that like Van Romero who was very open about the towers looking like a CD and then doing a 180, Leslie was very open about molten steel until someone told him to STFU or else.

C7, the Van Romero episode is being discussed on a new thread.

Please see what Van Romero has said recently about being told to "STFU," and comment on that thread if you're so inclined.

Dave
 
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C7, the Van Romero episode is being discussed on a new thread.

Please see what Van Romero has said recently about being told to "STFU," and comment on that thread if you're so inclined.

Dave

There is nothing for claim with regards to Robertson either.

I was the first to contact him out of the blue about 5 years ago.
I wish I had time to write a more lengthy rebuke on the rest. I would suggest contacting Thomas Cahill with regards to the pile burning claims. But here are a couple of quick links.

http://www.newsreview.com/sacramento/to-tell-the-truth/content?oid=65238

"Cahill arrived at Ground Zero weeks after the reports of molten metal at the scene, but his extensive research on why the rubble piles smoldered so long was of interest to controlled-demolition theorists, who believed molten steel in the bottom of the piles provided the heat source. Such was not the case, Cahill said. Instead, fuel oil from the WTC’s generators seeped into the ground, ignited and slowly consumed the debris stacked on top of it. As the piles were peeled open, oxygen stoked the underground fire, which burned for weeks."

Another article is here.
http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/fightingthefiresinthewtcdebrispiles

"It is no mystery why the fire has burned for so long. Mangled steel and concrete, plastics from office furniture and equipment, fuels from elevator hydraulics, cars and other sources are all in great supply in the six-story basement area where the two towers collapsed.

Water alone rarely can quench this kind of fire, which will burn as long as there is adequate fuel and oxygen and as long as heat cannot escape, fire experts said."

"When round-the-clock Pyrocool treatment at the trade center was stopped after a week, Chief Blaich said, there was noticeable progress. But the fires were still burning, in large part because of difficulty in getting the substance down through the debris pile and directly onto hot spots."

Also nice work Oystein. You posted some great information I had not seen.
 
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Of course, Christopher7 has had this all pointed out to him before. His usual response is to vanish from the forum for a few weeks, then come back when everyone's forgotten that they told him.

Dave
Dave Rogers
NIST FAQ August 30, 2008
Pure liquid aluminum would be expected to appear silvery.
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

NohaFence
Large plies of tires have been known to burn for a matter of weeks and months.
Cars burn out in hours. [start at 1:25]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPUqnSLWo8Q

Onstein
http://72.22.18.215/s_mrs/bin.asp?CID=2523&DID=57587&DOC=FILE.PDF
Very interesting, but irrelevant. You are playing games and just argue to win.
The paint you referenced is used in pottery and paintings, not buildings, because it is no doubt very expensive. The other reference is also irrelevant to the point at hand - the red/gray chips.

You are not a serious people, just adolescents making blatantly absurd statements or looking for something to rail about. All the childish put downs tell us what you are really about.
 
Cars burn out in hours. [start at 1:25]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPUqnSLWo8Q

This video does not say anything about cars burning out in hours. Those cars were extinguished. That was a major artery to get rescue crews in and out. It would have INCREDIBLY unsafe to allow them to burn.

Just goes back to your lack of knowledge of anything firefighting related.

I've been fighting fire for almost 16 years. I came down in 1998 to Florida to help with the wildfires here. We would be doing spot checks, and would find tires burning after the fire had long passed. Sometimes a week later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tire_fire

Here is an interesting paper on fire prevention and tactics of tire storage faciliity fires.

http://osfm.fire.ca.gov/codedevelopment/pdf/tirefire/TPFReportFinal.pdf

Start on page 32 of the PDF. It's very informative.


You are not a serious people, just adolescents making blatantly absurd statements or looking for something to rail about. All the childish put downs tell us what you are really about.

You owe me another irony meter.
 
Dave Rogers
NIST FAQ August 30, 2008
Pure liquid aluminum would be expected to appear silvery.

Chris, how stupid are you trying to look here? Go back to the video 000063 posted in post #1251. Look at the molten aluminium. See how it glows yellow-orange. See how it looks exactly the way most people would expect molten iron to look. It's right there in front of your eyes.

Oh, and then get yourself a dictionary and look up the word "pure".

You are not a serious people, just adolescents making blatantly absurd statements or looking for something to rail about. All the childish put downs tell us what you are really about.

When you get shown a video of molten aluminium glowing orange-yellow, and you can still insist that molten aluminium always looks silvery, it's a bit difficult to know a better way to react than pointing and laughing. You're deluded, and everybody can see it but you.

Dave
 

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