Gage's next debate

[aggle-rithm]

They determined that the spheres were created during the event because they determined that the dust forced into places where other dust does not go was the same as the dust found throughout the building. RJ Lee is a THE expert in his field and did not make unsubstantiated statements.

Halleluia! This means that there is still a small chance that a tiny, insubstantial part of the Big Ball of Conspiracy Mud you call a "theory" may not be total, unadulterated bull droppings!

You've got the skeptics on the ropes, you do. And it only took ten years!

 

[Oystein]

Correct. The RJ Lee Group was under the impression that the fires were hot enough to melt iron so that was why they were not surprised to find the iron microspheres....

The RJ Lee Group was under the impression that they were dealing with the high temperatures of an extraordinary office fire.
What informs you that they were thinking "2800°F", except your prejudices?

 

[Christopher7]

I know how to read an X-ray spectrum.

You don't even know how to read the words:
"SEM image and EDS of spherical iron particle"

 

[Christopher7]

The RJ Lee Group was under the impression that they were dealing with the high temperatures of an extraordinary office fire.

Correct, that's why they were not surprised to find spheres that were formed from iron that was melted during the event.

What informs you that they were thinking "2800°F"?

The fact that iron melts at 2800^oF.

 

[Oystein]

You don't even know how to read the words:
"SEM image and EDS of spherical iron particle"

The Almond can read the EDS spectrum.
Sunstealer can read the EDS spectrum.
Even I can read the EDS spectrum.
It proves the caption WRONG.
Probably just a slip by the RJ Lee Group redactor.
And you just proved that you CANNOT read the EDS spectrum.

 

[Oystein]

Correct, that's why they were not surprised to find spheres that were formed from iron that was melted during the event.
The fact that iron melts at 2800^oC.

Fallacy of Assuming the Conclusion that iron-RICH(!) speres can't form at lower temperatures.

You don't know to read the words. You seem they say something which they do not.

 

[beachnut]

Correct, that's why they were not surprised to find spheres that were formed from iron that was melted during the event.
The fact that iron melts at 2800^oC.

They were not surprised? Source, page, paragraph, quote. I find iron spheres all over, not surprising since guess what is one of the most common elements on earth? BINGO

Date of the samples please. OMG, after clean up. That is kind of big time fail.

 

[aggle-rithm]

As we all know, the spectrum doesn't mean anything; it's the caption that counts. A common misconception is that the Sun is made mostly of hydrogen, but in fact someone just captioned the EDS spectrum incorrectly. It's actually made of M&M's.

 

[Oystein]

They were not surprised? Source, page, paragraph, quote. I find iron spheres all over, not surprising since guess what is one of the most common elements on earth? BINGO

Date of the samples please. OMG, after clean up. Darn, you failed.

Careful, beachnut, you have no proof that a significant amount of the dust entered 130 Liberty during clean-up.
And you are, too, missing the obvious facts that these are not iron-spheres but iron-rich-spheres - mostly oxides.

 

[Christopher7]

The Almond can read the EDS spectrum.
Sunstealer can read the EDS spectrum.
Even I can read the EDS spectrum.
It proves the caption WRONG.
Probably just a slip by the RJ Lee Group redactor.

Of course dear, y'all know more about it that the experts who actually did the analysis.



This nonsense only demonstrates that your denial is so profound, you will simply reject anything that proves temperatures far in excess of what can be attained in office fires because you know that blows the wheels off the OCT.

 

[The Almond]

You don't even know how to read the words:
"SEM image and EDS of spherical iron particle"

And yet, it's an iron particle that clearly has oxygen in it. Could it be that the caption is wrong?

 

[The Almond]

Of course dear, y'all know more about it that the experts who actually did the analysis.

Nope. It means that we can look at an X-ray spectrum and look for the peak labeled "O". Can you?

 

[Oystein]

Of course dear, y'all know more about it that the experts who actually did the analysis.



This nonsense only demonstrates that your denial is so profound, you will simply reject anything that proves temperatures far in excess of what can be attained in office fires because you know that blows the wheels off the OCT.

No, we don't know more than they.
Just enough to find a minor slip in the caption.

What do you know? You can't read EDS spectra at all and hand-wave the significant presence of O. This is based on nothing. On no experience, no reference, no reason. You just say so.

And we know it. You would be embarrassed if you knew how MUCH of a fool you are making yourself. You can't see it, that's why ignorance is bliss, but we see it, and feel sorry.

 

[Christopher7]

No, we don't know more than they.
Just enough to find a minor slip in the caption.

You found a minor slip? Write RJ Lee and let him know. When he acknowledges that he made this mistake you can say you are right. Until then you are talking thru your hat.
ETA: It wasn't just in the caption. It was also in the text description of the spectrum.

What do you know? You can't read EDS spectra at all and hand-wave the significant presence of O. This is based on nothing. On no experience, no reference, no reason. You just say so.

Hello?

My say so?

Dude, The RJ Lee Group said so.

 

[Christopher7]

Recap for those who have not been following this thread:

RJ Lee Group report - 2003
Pg 17 [pdf pg 21]
Various metals (most notably iron and lead) were melted during the WTC event, producing spherical metallic particles. Exposure of phases to high heat results in the formation of spherical particles due to surface tension. Figure 21 and Figure 22 show a spherical iron particle resulting from the melting of iron (or steel).

RJ Lee Group report - 2004
Pg 4 [pdf pg 5]
The pressure differential was caused by the onrush of the WTC Dust cloud that was created by the collapse of the WTC Towers with a low pressure inside Building components and high
pressure outside. A huge pressure difference was created that caused large quantities of dust laden air to move through unplanned pathways. Individual components or devices with internal spaces effectively acted like a vacuum cleaner pulling the dust into them with great force.
Pg 5
The investigations proved that the Building is pervasively contaminated with WTC Dust, unique to the WTC Event.
Pg 6
As a result of microscopic and chemical analysis of the components of the WTC Dust, it was determined that the average level of contaminants were present in direct proportion to one another throughout the Building,
Pg 15
Under ordinary circumstances dust in a building would have multiple sources and occur in a random distribution with no recognizable geographical pattern. Furthermore, the dust in occupied, unoccupied, and inaccessible locations would be expected to be different in composition because occupied spaces are frequently cleaned and use conditioned air; unoccupied spaces are not routinely cleaned and are not often climate controlled, and inaccessible spaces (e.g., wall cavities, above ceilings) often contain construction material debris. Despite these environmental differences the dust in the below gash sector relative to the top of the Building is 10 times higher than the average concentration at the top whereas the lead and other metals are comparable to each other in the two sectors.

 

[The Almond]

Recap for those who have not been following this thread:

Translation: I have argued myself into a hole and everyone is calling me on my malarkey. I would like to pretend that most of the last two pages did not occur, and I would instead like to believe that this was what we were arguing about. Mkay guys?

 

[DGM]

Chris:
Obviously the RJ Lee group must also think this is very suspicious. Why do you think they don't speak up? (You're not claiming you're smarter then they are, so they must know)

 

[NoahFence]

Translation: I have argued myself into a hole and everyone is calling me on my malarkey. I would like to pretend that most of the last two pages did not occur, and I would instead like to believe that this was what we were arguing about. Mkay guys?

Sounds like a plan.... moving forward!

 

[chrismohr]

Simple Question #8:

"RJ Lee is a THE expert in his field and did not make unsubstantiated statements" says C7. I asked this before but I will ask again, if they are THE expert, wouldn't THE expert find thermites? C7 said no, thermites are not an environmental hazard (!)

I think when I meet Richard again and he tells me we need a new investigation, I'll say I will sign his petition as soon as RJ Lee says there are thermites in the dust. They are THE experts, after all. So they'll get lots of signatures on their peition, not only mine, if they just send the samples off to RJ Lee. I realize that there would still be the "chain of custody" issue but proving thermites in dust by RJ Lee would make me really really want to know more. Fair enough?

 

[beachnut]

Careful, beachnut, you have no proof that a significant amount of the dust entered 130 Liberty during clean-up.
And you are, too, missing the obvious facts that these are not iron-spheres but iron-rich-spheres - mostly oxides.

Oh, don't clean your house for 8 months. It is reality dust and fumes from the clean up would be in 130 Liberty. Are you saying no dust or fumes entered 130 Liberyt during clean up? No.

Oops, he will say melted during the WTC EVENT, and forget CLEAN-UP is a MAJOR PART of the event, see, he did it while I was mowing the lawn and editing this junk. Get him to provide the evidence. AND he says it was during the WTC EVENT. Is iron in mineral wool? How is mineral wool made? What is his conclusion?

There are enough sources for iron rich sphere before and after clean up with out make up idiot conspiracy theories born out of paranoia. I have iron all over my back yard, your back yard, and the earth.

If he is saying the iron is from steel melting, then it was from the clean up and construction (fly-ash, mineral wool, etc. just add what was there). Thousand of steel beams were cut/melted during clean up, you have seen the photos. If there is iron from melted steel, it was during clean up, and other sources, like fly-ash, etc. The poor guy has no idea what happen on 911.

His claim is failed, no matter how you want to address it.

I would have to say the clean up counts as sources of dust and fumes, and can be stuck in a report as part of the WTC event when that report is based on data collected after the WTC event, which includes MONTHS of clean up. I can't be wrong, it is a fact. This is cool