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Gage's next debate

I've asked this before. Remember Richard Gage's "Big Five" things he demanded I must answer "or the debate is over"? Symmetrical freefall of Building 7, melted steel girders, iron microspheres, tons of molten steel or iron, nanothermitic chips? We've dealt with all of these, and I will call him on his efforts to shift the burden of proof on to me for every anomaly, but I will repeat one question to all of you:

The iron microspheres were "expected" to be found in the RJ Lee dust study; they weren't at all surprised to find them. They indicated they were created during the fires. Several of you have proposed that the iron microspheres were always in the building and could have come from 1) welders in the early 70s during construction of the buildings 2) fly ash from concrete 3) printer toner.

We are not bound by the findings of RJ Lee, and this could be a case of competing hypotheses-- or more than one hypothesis could be true.

My simple question may be hard to answer tho: can anyone provide me with a photo of iron microspheres in fly ash, clinging to a recently-welded steel beam, or in printer toner? Or, in support of the competing RJ Lee hypothesis that the iron microspheres were created during the 911 fires, can anyone show me pictures of iron microspheres that are known to have been created in a standard building fire?

Sometime last year I opened a thread in this subforum asking pretty much the same thing - solid explanations for the apparantly significant amounts (6% in the Deutsche Bank bldg., iirc) of iron-rich spheres, and my feeling was that this was never adequately answered. Maybe you'll be more persistent this time?

Just search this subforum for threads opened by me.
 
My simple question may be hard to answer tho: can anyone provide me with a photo of iron microspheres in fly ash, clinging to a recently-welded steel beam, or in printer toner? Or, in support of the competing RJ Lee hypothesis that the iron microspheres were created during the 911 fires, can anyone show me pictures of iron microspheres that are known to have been created in a standard building fire?



The image and accompanying spectrum come from my analysis of a selection of Tolk fly ash. As a side note, doing particle analyses of dust, ash and other particles is about 25% of my job, and I maintain a database of about 400,000 particles from fly ash samples alone. My analysis uses exactly the same method and instrument that RJ Lee uses, and I classified this particle as "Iron Rich". Obviously, this particle is an iron oxide of some type, but the particle clearly contains small amounts of calcium, silicon and aluminum.

A few points to make about fly ash:
  1. Fly ash is traditionally analyzed using X-ray Fluorescence (XRF). Most XRF instruments do not measure oxygen directly, but they make the simplyfing assumption that all inorganic compounds found in the samples are oxidized to their most common oxidation states. Thus, if iron is found, it is assumed to be stoichiometric Fe2O3.
  2. I cannot stress enough that most particles found in dust and ash are comprised of oxidized compounds. Silicon is identified as silica, aluminum is alumina, calcium is calcium oxide.
  3. X-ray methods, whether X-ray induced (XRF or µXRF) or electron induced (SEM-EDX or EPMA) are not sensitive to hydrogen, helium or lithium. It is very difficult to differentiate between FeO2 and Fe(OH)2 using X-ray fluorescence. Even though the iron is in a different valence state, the production of X-rays, especially K energy X-rays, is largely unaffected. Only composition matters in XRF.

Obviously, since we're dealing with iron oxides, iron hydroxides, and iron eutectics (which themselves may have extra hydrogen and oxygen), the assumption that "iron rich" spheres must come from fire temperatures capable of melting pure iron is preposterous.

Also, it's important to remember that fires don't need to efficiently create iron rich microspheres. Rather, they need only to concentrate those iron rich microspheres in the dust. As these spheres presumably have a low amount of combustable material, it's reasonable to assume that they're going to survive a fire unchanged, whereas the parent material (paper, wood, carpet, organic paint binders, etc) will not survive in tact. Ash is not a random sampling of all the materials in a fire, it is a random sampling of materials that do not readily combust, of which iron bearing compounds are going to be a significant part.

Have you ever tried to cook a bag of fresh spinach? Get a bag that's 3 feet tall and dump it into an average frying pan with a bit of oil. In addition to making a delicious fried spinach, you'll also notice that you can fit the entire bag in that little pan. How? You got rid of all the material that can evaporate readily, and what's left has very little water left in it. A fire does the same things to a building. By volume, the amount of iron microspheres in paint may be 0.001%, but if the other 99.999% of the material is combustable, the iron microspheres will be all that is left over.
 
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You made this up. This is a made up statement based on your lack of knowledge. Why did you make this up? No wonder you support Gage, he uses this kind of failed logic, evidence free nonsense.

It is corrosion, it was not caused by thermite because the eutectic formed well below thermite temperatures. This is not the first time steel has corroded, so your statement is false.

you got a link to some steel that lost 15.9mm of a36 steel in only 8 days or steel that was one inch to razor thin in just 8-18 days?
 
Have you ever tried to cook a bag of fresh spinach? Get a bag that's 3 feet tall and dump it into an average frying pan with a bit of oil. In addition to making a delicious fried spinach, you'll also notice that you can fit the entire bag in that little pan. How? You got rid of all the material that can evaporate readily, and what's left has very little water left in it. A fire does the same things to a building. By volume, the amount of iron microspheres in paint may be 0.001%, but if the other 99.999% of the material is combustable, the iron microspheres will be all that is left over.

[TrutherMode]Oh, that's ridiculous; there was no spinach found at GZ![/TrutherMode]
 
Well, OK, obviously my aluminum soup recipe was silliness... and it's fun to be silly!... but my point that I simply do not believe that Christopher7 can deny the presence of abundant aluminum in the debris, some of which could have been brought to a liquid state. Nor do I give ANY credence to the idea that liquid aluminum will always retain its pure bright silvery color no matter what other stuff gets thrown into it in a real fire. Silliness aside Christopher7, I'm putting the burden of proof on you for the claim that aluminum cannot be discolored.
 
you didnt ask how many pieces he saw that look 'evaportated". ill email him and ask. also the article speaks as if he was at the wtc 7 site and saw the "evaporated" steel. the narrator said it was found at a salvage yard. ill see what he has to say about that.

prof sisson should still find it mysterious because he can only get "little metal" to dissolve in 24 hrs. prof Astaneh - asl saw a piece of wtc 7 steel that 15.9mm of a36 steel had corroded/erroded/vaporized/evaporated/dissolved in just 8 days. he also saw steel flanges where a full inch had been reduced to razor thin in just 8-18 days. that is massive steel loss considering they expected to find just "distortion and bending--but not holes." all the many yrs of fire science and these guys just now come accross steel like this...only on 911 man.

I haven't seen anything that points to other steel members. (There are piece(s) from the steel members as the pictures show.) But good luck.
I thought I should also add this piece of information from sample 2.

"Finally, as this piece was clearly in a prone position during the corrosive attack and was located no higher than the 53rd floor of the building, this degradation phenomenon had no bearing on the weakening of the steel structure or the collapse of the building ."

"Single Column K-16" on page 229 to page 233) (PDF page 279 -
283)
 
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Well, OK, obviously my aluminum soup recipe was silliness... and it's fun to be silly!
No worries mate. I'm a Monty Python fan and a devout sarcasimist too. ;)

but my point that I simply do not believe that Christopher7 can deny the presence of abundant aluminum in the debris, some of which could have been brought to a liquid state.
Justin mentioned trucks that make deliveries. The truck "boxes" are mostly aluminum. I knew that cam covers and transmission cases were aluminum but I was surprized to learn that there was 240 lbs (?) of aluminum in most cars.
However, WTC 7 did not have a basement.

Nor do I give ANY credence to the idea that liquid aluminum will always retain its pure bright silvery color no matter what other stuff gets thrown into it in a real fire.
Like you said, science is not your thing. Carbon based things [plastic, wood etc.] will carbonize and float on top of molten aluminum as a "back yard" experiment has shown. Although that is not considered scientific evidence because it has not been published and repeated by others, it is an example of what actually happens. Supposition is not science and there is no science to support the NIST claim that organic materials mixed with molten aluminum.

Silliness aside Christopher7, I'm putting the burden of proof on you for the claim that aluminum cannot be discolored.
That's not the way it works. NIST cannot make proclamations for which there is no precedent or scientific evidence and say "you have to prove us wrong". They have the burden of proof.
 
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Justin mentioned trucks that make deliveries. The truck "boxes" are mostly aluminum. I knew that cam covers and transmission cases were aluminum but I was surprized to learn that there was 240 lbs (?) of aluminum in most cars.
However, WTC 7 did not have a basement.

However, there are still plenty of other things in 7WTC that would have been made of aluminum. Not that it matters really, since there was a loading dock on the first floor, and also the many things in an HVAC system that are aluminum.......
 
Justin mentioned trucks that make deliveries. The truck "boxes" are mostly aluminum. I knew that cam covers and transmission cases were aluminum but I was surprized to learn that there was 240 lbs (?) of aluminum in most cars.
However, WTC 7 did not have a basement.

Actually valve covers a lot of the time are stamped steel. Some are aluminum. Hit and miss on that one. The heads themselves though are usually aluminum. Ever lift a cast iron head? I work on old Continental flat heads sometimes. Even with no valve-train parts, they're twice as heavy as a modern head.

I think Tri handled the rest. :D
 
you got a link to some steel that lost 15.9mm of a36 steel in only 8 days or steel that was one inch to razor thin in just 8-18 days?
Do you see any thermite fused to the steel in question? No, because thermite was not there. Go ahead link to some steel that was corroded by thermite. The steel in question was not heated to the temperature associated with thermite, unless you 911 truth guys are pushing low temperature thermite with your no noise explosives. Go ahead prove your thermite, show us steel with thermite fused all over it, at temperature far over the steel which corroded, not thermite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR6K90cR8Lg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpOJE-mkWmw

Notice how the thermite sticks to the steel? Where is your thermite products on 911? This is much too easy. The corroded steel could have happened before 911, and is a rare event, only two samples out of hundreds of thousands pieces of steel. Or are there more? Good luck. The reason to study the corrosion is what? It was not thermite, what was it?

The steel was studied, proves no themite.
Evidence of a severe high temperature corrosion attack on the steel, including oxidation and sulfidation with subsequent intergranular melting, was readily visible in the near-surface microstructure. A liquid eutectic mixture containing primarily iron, oxygen, and sulfur formed during this hot corrosion attack on the steel. This sulfur-rich liquid penetrated preferentially down grain boundaries of the steel, severely weakening the beam and making it susceptible to erosion. The eutectic temperature for this mixture strongly suggests that the temperatures in this region of the steel beam approached 1,000 °C (1,800 °F),
Temperature, too low for thermite; your claim has failed.

You are using corroded steel to explain what? Your lack of knowledge in chemical engineering, or your propensity for paranoid conspiracy theories?
 
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However, there are still plenty of other things in 7WTC that would have been made of aluminum. Not that it matters really, since there was a loading dock on the first floor, and also the many things in an HVAC system that are aluminum.......


Every window mullion in the fricking building was aluminum. :eye-poppi
 
What about the other metals that I have brought up C7?

Do I need to list them again?

What color was the metal when it was still contained in the hot container?

When are you going to pull your head out of your ass?
 
For the first part of the pour beginning at 1:59 the aluminum is silvery. At 2:03-2:04 you can see silvery aluminum hanging from the side of the vessel. This was just molten and is just below the melting point. As the vessel pours at 2:08 the aluminum is silvery. Again at 2:11 the aluminum is silvery.

:confused:
I see the pour begin at 1:08. I think the conditions in that corner of the Tower were a lot closer to "fresh off the stove" and glowing than to 50 seconds later (1:59).
 
:confused:
I see the pour begin at 1:08. I think the conditions in that corner of the Tower were a lot closer to "fresh off the stove" and glowing than to 50 seconds later (1:59).
The aluminum in the video is silvery when poured. NIST admits that aluminum is silvery in daylight. Why are you trying to say otherwise?

NIST FAQ 8 30 06 on molten metal

11. Why do some photographs show a yellow stream of molten metal pouring down the side of WTC2 that NIST claims was aluminum from the crashed plane although aluminum burns with a white glow?

Pure liquid aluminum would be expected to appear silvery. However, the molten metal was very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers) which can display an orange glow.

There is no president or scientific data to support the claim that organic materials can mix with molten aluminum.
 
The aluminum in the video is silvery when poured. NIST admits that aluminum is silvery in daylight. Why are you trying to say otherwise?

So let me see if I've got it straight:

1. Melt some aluminum
2. ???
3. The tower collapses
4. ???
5. PROFIT!

Care to fill in the gaps?
 

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