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Gage's next debate

grandmastershek

Graduate Poster
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
Messages
1,461
‎"It has been difficult to find defenders of the official story who will acknowledge in a scientific and sincere manner the troubling forensic evidence that we present."

Translation: If you don't accept the smoke n mirror show of Jones & AE911Truth, they will not debate you.

http://www.ae911truth.org/en/news-section/41-articles/454-radio-debate.html

Interestingly enough out of all the people Gage could debate, he decides to go against a wedding officiant with an English degree. I guess he is tired of getting schooled by scientists. Take note that the event is being sponsored by a Colorado based truther group. So no doubt the audience will be stacked with basking sharks in a sea of ignorance. Maybe I will invite Mr. Mohr over here to have him hash out his ideas?
 
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A professional film crew with three cameras will be recording the debate, so this important educational material can later be presented to a much wider audience in the form of a DVD.

Available soon at the AE store for the everyday low price of $29.99.

:rolleyes:
 
Available soon at the AE store for the everyday low price of $29.99.

:rolleyes:

Come watch Richie debate someone with no scientific background whatsoever!

I really shouldn't make a big deal about though. Gravy is a tour guide and he had Richie crying in a puddle of his own piss. So maybe Rev. Mohr will put up a better fight than I am presuming.
 
I imagine:

Gage: "I'll show my slides, you show yours, we'll talk a bit and split the take 70/30".

It will be a classic snake oil show. Gage will do his moronic poll and a the end the reverend will raise his hand too. Then he will be paraded as wonderful new convert.
 
Mr. Mohr has been asking me a few of the standard questions over e-mail. Personally I wouldn't waste any time on Gage, particularly given that he and his organization have promised to rebut my whitepaper and I have yet to see anything from them... but it's his time to spend on it.
 
Uh, Reverend Mohr sounds like a truther.

Way to go Gage, ya weakling.

Mohr has examined the NIST reports, found them to be flawed, and is deeply interested in determining the truth about this pivotal event.




Yep sounds more like a revival meeting than a debate.
 
Listening to the radio debate now. Some highlights:

1. Gage (at about 53:00 claims that the mass of the top part of the North Tower "disintegrated" in the first four seconds of the collapse and thus had no weight.

2. Later (54:00) Gage contends that 98% of the debris from the top part is "outside the building". So much for "into its own footprint" that Gage usually repeats as a mantra for why the collapse resembles a controlled demolition.

3. Gage gets into the whole "pulverized" nonsense, going to the extent of claiming that all the filing cabinets are missing (!).

4. Mohr generally does an excellent job, although I did wince when he wasted his time for rebuttal of the molten steel and microspheres issue to talking about the eutectic reaction and agreeing that it was a mystery. He does express doubt about some of the arguments raised by the "debunkers", but it appears to me that he does this in a solid, skeptical manner in that he just has not been convinced. I see no evidence that he's really a "Truther" and claims that he will roll over for Gage in the full debate seem unfair.
 
I see no evidence that he's really a "Truther" and claims that he will roll over for Gage in the full debate seem unfair.

Very true. I think I was hasty. I have been swapping emails with him and he seems genuine. He gave me kind permission to post his response here.

I've read some nasty things about Richard Gage already, and I have been in extensive contact with Ryan Mackey, whose white paper on David Ray Griffin was an incredible resource for me. Please tell the Randi folks to come out for the debate. I could use your support. And the skeptics of all stripes. They are requesting a $10 donation but no one will be turned away.

I have been a lifelong friend of someone who got into the 911 Truth
movement and now is a major organizer. She asked me to watch the videos and attend the meetings, and at first I was completely unimpressed. But like many people, I was upset with the Bush administration's rush to war in Iraq, and resented their methodology of "proving" WMDs against Saddam. I am no scientist, but science has been a lifelong hobby of mine. When I first saw
Richard Gage's 911 Blueprint for Truth video, I was initially impressed and
went back to give the whole theory a second look. He is the most compelling, articulate speaker the 911 Truth Movement has. But I quickly realized the
science just isn't there to support his claims and eventually challenged him to a debate. Initially my Truther friend resisted the idea, so I had to convince her to host this debate. I was surprised that Gage accepted.

Don't be too quick to dismiss me personally because I make my living running
a wedding chapel. I studied journalism with a crack investigative journalist
from the St Louis Post Dispatch who helped break the Mafia's stranglehold on City Hall. I am well versed in the techniques and goals of investigative
journalism. I have cultivated very strong speaking skills and am familiar
with rhetorical devices etc. I will make sure people know that a real
scientific debate would be scientist-to-scientist and that this is not that.
Instead, I am a journalist investigating and exposing as false the claims of
the controlled demolition theory. The job of a journalist is to look at both
sides and then share with his audience what he has found, in a simple,
direct way that is understandable to the average reader or listener. I
report the facts and the audience evaluates them. In the debate format
that's changed a bit, because I am advocating for Natural Collapse. So put me on the editorial page.

I will also treat my audience and my opponent with complete respect. I will
make a "unifying statement" to set a tone that will help those who disagree with me let down their defenses and be open to what I have to say. It will help a lot that I was initially impressed with Gage's presentation. That's
why I took him on. His rhetorical style is formidable and convincing. And
NIST has promised to email me responses to some tough questions about their reports (this will be arriving very soon). I've talked with Kevin Ryan, with
Ryan Mackey, and others. That's what investigative journalists do. Before
running this chapel, I published a classical music magazine and wrote music articles which sometimes were investigative in nature. Not as tough as my mentor having guns pointed at him by members of the St Louis Mafia, but
several times I had to dig pretty deep to reveal things that musical
organizations didn't want the public to know. I bring that experience to
bear on this debate.


A lot of people have told me that this debate will only strengthen the Truth Movement by granting legitimacy to Richard Gage. I don't have the
qualifications to legitimize him in that way (as you pointed out on a recent post: thanks for the free publicity for my wedding chapel).

I have put on my journalist hat and this has journalistic value because a segment of thje population is interesterd in it. I felt that having a compelling, affable, unthreatening, respectful person who will take on Gage's claims and have that information actually available within the Truth movement may help people who are looking at the issue get the other side. A depressing tendency I've seen is that people who don't know how to do independent research will tend to "research" by getting more videos and books from the Truth movement or the debunkers' websites only. This will be a rare inside resource for potential new Truthers. I can honestly present myself as a guy who was intrigued and interested but on further reflection decided that there is no science behind Gage's assertions. That's less threatening, frankly, than the Randi position that anyone who agrees with the Truthers is an idiot.

My journalism teacher taught me to trust my audience, and not get caught up in who will believe you and who won't. Just report the facts, which I promise I will do to the best of my ability. I really hope some Randi people
come out to see it and let me know how I did!

Best regards,Chris Mohr

The message was only changed to omit his email address and formatting issues; which I obviously didn't fully fix.

However,since I am aware that Rev. Mohr has at least checked in here I would strongly urge he engage in discussion here as I noted a few issues with regards to his points (i.e.-NIST ruled out explosives beforehand).

I swear to ?, the mroe I listne to Richie the more I am convinced he is a blithering idiot. How can you expect an explosive shockwave to create localized breakage of 1 or 2 windows, meanwhile expecting air to cause multiple failures? WTF man! get your head out of your ass! Spend some time reading anything on fluid mechanics. This idiot constantly throws around the phrase "path of least resistance" with no idea WTF it even means.
 
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I was initially impressed and went back to give the whole theory a second look. He is the most compelling, articulate speaker the 911 Truth Movement has. But I quickly realized the science just isn't there to support his claims

I swear to ?, the mroe I listne to Richie the more I am convinced he is a blithering idiot. How can you expect an explosive shockwave to create localized breakage of 1 or 2 windows, meanwhile expecting air to cause multiple failures? WTF man! get your head out of your ass! Spend some time reading anything on fluid mechanics. This idiot constantly throws around the phrase "path of least resistance" with no idea WTF it even means.

This parallels my experince listening to him. When you hear him in clips or without much knowledge of the debates, he comes across as having a compelling story. The more you listen to him, the more you realize he is making things up and even contradicting himself. He seems to have no knowledge of the body of research literature using data from 911. He's not just hiding it; he seems to be unaware of it.
 
Around 1:20:00 into the radio debate:

"...this new phenomena called thermal expansion" Richard Gage

Holy ****! I swear its better other people debate Gage, because if that was me I would have just responded "You sir are the sorriest fool known to man. You have to be the most willfully ignorant jack-hole to ever wander out of a woman's vagina".
 
...
I swear to ?, the mroe I listne to Richie the more I am convinced he is a blithering idiot. How can you expect an explosive shockwave to create localized breakage of 1 or 2 windows, meanwhile expecting air to cause multiple failures? WTF man! get your head out of your ass! Spend some time reading anything on fluid mechanics. This idiot constantly throws around the phrase "path of least resistance" with no idea WTF it even means.

He knows what it means: bathing in and sowing pseudo-scientific terms means more income for him. He is getting paid to continue this blather.:cool:
 
Around 1:20:00 into the radio debate:

"...this new phenomena called thermal expansion" Richard Gage
Every time I see this architect say this phrase I become gravely concerned about the safety of his clients. Although in my experience this wasn't a thorough topic in my own academic progression, it came up several times as an issue that needs to be addressed among everything else in design because unengineered it can make for some very dangerous conditions for occupants. Doesn't the ethics code require architects to demonstrate a certain standard of reasonable care and competence? Doesn't look like Gage gives a **** all that much about the ethics codes (probably why he had to remove the AIA logo from his site some years back).
 
Apparently Rev. Mohr is having trouble registering and he asked me to post his questions here. So I am guessing he has been checking the threads.

Hello all,

As you know, I am debating Richard Gage in Boulder March 6 (details to follow). I've been having problems registering onto the chat room so Grandmastershek is posting for me. Ryan Mackey has answered almost all my questions but a few remain:

I have read that iron microspheres in the WTC dust could have come from fly ash in the concrete or printer toner. Are there any photos of microspheres in either of these? I am using dozens of pictures to rebut Gage and such a photo would be great to use.

I think I pretty much understand the free fall collapse of the north perimeter of Building 7 (it was a work in progress with my radio debate). NIST should be giving their answer to this very soon as well. Ryan Mackey did a great job with this and I am pretty satisfied, but I want a very strong narrative for this part of the debate and other ideas welcome.

Eutectic steel: my understanding is that while it is a mystery how it was created in the WTC fires, it is also means steel can melt at office-fire temperatures, not thermitic temps. Plus there is not enough of it to explain the global collapse. Any other data which can help with a simple narrative about this welcome.

For any of you who have listened to the debate: any gross scientific inaccuracies? If so, I welcome corrections.

I'm doing this for free. If it gets sold, I will be glad to know that another perspective is being offered at least.

Thanks all,
Chris Mohr

The 1 gross scientific inaccuracy I noted earlier was the bit about "a new phenomenon called thermal expansion". A truther on youtube pointed to the gross quote mining & misrepersentation that goes into making this claim. For example here is how Prisonplanet phrases it.

NIST Claims “New Phenomenon” Occurred For First Time Ever In Collapse Of WTC 7
In its final report on the collapse of WTC 7 that news outlets are reporting “puts 9/11 conspiracy theories to bed,” NIST claims that the never before observed “new phenomenon” of “thermal expansion” was to blame for the destruction of the building...

This is how NIST's quote was presented to me:
This study has identified thermal expansion as a new phenomenon.

I am assuming this is the version Gage, like most truthers, is work with. But the entire quote doesn't reference thermal expansion as a new phenomenon, but a new one for building collapses.

This study has identified thermal expansion as a new phenomenon that can cause structural collapse. (Opening Statement
Press Briefing—August 21, 2008, Report on the Collapse of World Trade Center Building 7, Shyam Sunder Lead Investigator)

Anyone who takes 5 secs to Google thermal expansion, or graduated high school, could see its nowhere near new. Also, consider my earlier post about path of least resistance as it applies to air flow as opposed to explosive shock wave. IIRC Mythbusters did an episode where they pressurized a plane to test the suck-out theory after the discharge of a gun. The problem they encountered was that when they pressurized the plane they kept getting blow out from 1 cockpit window (the path of least resistance). According to Gage all the windows should have blown out. He has the concept totally backwards. You could also use a tire blow out as an example.



 
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Should be yet another debate where a truther gets schooled in basic science and reasoning....
 
This parallels my experince listening to him. When you hear him in clips or without much knowledge of the debates, he comes across as having a compelling story. The more you listen to him, the more you realize he is making things up and even contradicting himself. He seems to have no knowledge of the body of research literature using data from 911. He's not just hiding it; he seems to be unaware of it.
If you wish to have any credibility, defend your statements.

Of course the JREF circus will accept your rhetoric; that is preaching to the chorus.

If Gage is making things up (lying), then it should be like "shooting fish in a barrel" to list his lies and show them as such.

The fact that you fail to do so, suggests that the only one misrepresenting the truth is yourself!

MM
 

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