Gage and Szamboti to speak at New Jersey Institute of Technology

[jaydeehess]

There is nothing natural that I know of that could have weakened the lower structure to the point where it couldn't handle the load above it, short of a significant jolt, which is why you obviously can't go there without compromising your alleged belief in a natural collapse.

How about, and this is just spit-balling here, if something happened to cause there to be no lateral support structures between perimeter and core. Not sure if anyone has brought this up before, maybe you can recall if it has?

 

[JSanderO]

There is nothing natural that I know of that could have weakened the lower structure to the point where it couldn't handle the load above it, short of a significant jolt, which is why you obviously can't go there without compromising your alleged belief in a natural collapse.

The lower structure came down not as a result of mechanical impact of ANY magnitude... the floor system DID destroy itself by mechanically falling on the floor below and repeating until all the floors were destroy, crushed. shattered, ground to small bits.

The STRUCTURE collapsed because it could not stand on its own without the floors. Floors wnet first... "structure" toppled from instability and "euler" forces.

Simply question... If 20 floor masses drop on a single WTC floor.... what happens? You know the answer... they destroy it.

Can the tower stand without the floor system... just core "columns" and that exterior tube of columns?
You know the answer... NO

 

[jaydeehess]

How about, and this is just spit-balling here, if something happened to cause there to be no lateral support structures between perimeter and core. Not sure if anyone has brought this up before, maybe you can recall if it has?

The lower structure came down not as a result of mechanical impact of ANY magnitude... the floor system DID destroy itself by mechanically falling on the floor below and repeating until all the floors were destroy, crushed. shattered, ground to small bits.

The STRUCTURE collapsed because it could not stand on its own without the floors. Floors wnet first... "structure" toppled from instability and "euler" forces.

Simply question... If 20 floor masses drop on a single WTC floor.... what happens? You know the answer... they destroy it.

Can the tower stand without the floor system... just core "columns" and that exterior tube of columns?
You know the answer... NO

yeah - I knew I'd heard this from someone before, odd that Tony hasn't!

 

[Tony Szamboti]

The lower structure came down not as a result of mechanical impact of ANY magnitude... the floor system DID destroy itself by mechanically falling on the floor below and repeating until all the floors were destroy, crushed. shattered, ground to small bits.

The STRUCTURE collapsed because it could not stand on its own without the floors. Floors wnet first... "structure" toppled from instability and "euler" forces.

Simply question... If 20 floor masses drop on a single WTC floor.... what happens? You know the answer... they destroy it.

Can the tower stand without the floor system... just core "columns" and that exterior tube of columns?
You know the answer... NO

Jeffrey, the issue being discussed is the lack of a jolt in the early stories of the collapse.

The perimeter columns could have gone about six stories without lateral support without buckling. ROOSD cannot propagate on its own in the first few stories and 20 tower stories did not drop on a single floor right away.

Something removed the structural integrity of the perimeter walls early and the focused jets on either side of the corners, which are visible in video, are right where the spandrel beams connect to the corner. This would have caused a slenderness in each perimeter wall and significantly dropped their collective resistance. This conforms with observation and makes sense as to what happened, but it was not natural.

 

[DGM]

Jeffrey, the issue being discussed is the lack of a jolt in the early stories of the collapse.

Actually what is being discussed is your disconnection of reality and model(Bazant).

Carry on..........

 

[JSanderO]

Jeffrey, the issue being discussed is the lack of a jolt in the early stories of the collapse.

The perimeter columns could have gone about six stories without lateral support without buckling. ROOSD cannot propagate on its own in the first few stories and 20 tower stories did not drop on a single floor right away.

Something removed the structural integrity of the perimeter walls early and the focused jets on either side of the corners, which are visible in video, are right where the spandrel beams connect to the corner. This would have caused a slenderness in each perimeter wall and significantly dropped their collective resistance. This conforms with observation and makes sense as to what happened, but it was not natural.

All the perimeter columns were panels of 3 columns and 3 spandrels and so the spandrels of the panels assemblies whether on the face or at the corner were bolted. In fact the spandrels were hardly typical spandrel beams.... a bit of a misnomer. The facade was more like structure plates..10' wide x 36' high bolted top and bottom, left and right and there were of course 20"x88" high openings which were the windows. The entire facade was more like a single stressed skin/membrane. The corner sections were not as important as the floor plates to hold the facade square.

The bolted connections were clearly the weak link when the floors were stripped away. Notice almost all panels broke apart where they were bolted to one another.

Connections were weaker than the "things" they connected and failed first.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Actually what is being discussed is your disconnection of reality and model(Bazant).

Carry on..........

It doesn't sound like you are following very well. Nothing new there.

 

[JSanderO]

It doesn't sound like you are following very well. Nothing new there.

I was expecting a discussion of how the towers came apart.. especially 7WTC the topic of the event.

I know about the disbelief and that Richard thinks FF = CD... but there was really no discussion of how the visuals were the result of "mechanical" failures.

 

[Ziggi]

Jeffrey, the issue being discussed is the lack of a jolt in the early stories of the collapse.

The perimeter columns could have gone about six stories without lateral support without buckling. ROOSD cannot propagate on its own in the first few stories and 20 tower stories did not drop on a single floor right away.
Something removed the structural integrity of the perimeter walls early and the focused jets on either side of the corners, which are visible in video, are right where the spandrel beams connect to the corner. This would have caused a slenderness in each perimeter wall and significantly dropped their collective resistance. This conforms with observation and makes sense as to what happened, but it was not natural.

Tony, for the sake of argument, if the floors collapse x many stories on all 4 sides top-down so that a top portion of the perimeter walls caves in on all 4 sides...at what point would the core start to implode due to lack of support from perimeter walls/floors? That is, how many floors of floors and perimeter walls could you remove without collapsing the core from the top-down?

Could the entire core stand on its own without any perimeter walls?

 

[beachnut]

... Could the entire core stand on its own without any perimeter walls?

The shell is the lateral support, the core will fail. Why can't 911 truth followers look up the facts? Why does the 911 truth cult following believers fail to understand the WTC towers were a system of shell, floor, and core.

Kind of a question which shows complete lack of knowledge on the structure of the WTC towers. But not a surprise.

 

[DGM]

It doesn't sound like you are following very well. Nothing new there.

Do you consider the Bazant model to be reality or not? You have said it was.

 

[JSanderO]

Tony, for the sake of argument, if the floors collapse x many stories on all 4 sides top-down so that a top portion of the perimeter walls caves in on all 4 sides...at what point would the core start to implode due to lack of support from perimeter walls/floors? That is, how many floors of floors and perimeter walls could you remove without collapsing the core from the top-down?

Could the entire core stand on its own without any perimeter walls?

or.... could the facade stand without the floor plates and core?

 

[jaydeehess]

Tony, for the sake of argument, if the floors collapse x many stories on all 4 sides top-down so that a top portion of the perimeter walls caves in on all 4 sides...at what point would the core start to implode due to lack of support from perimeter walls/floors? That is, how many floors of floors and perimeter walls could you remove without collapsing the core from the top-down?

Could the entire core stand on its own without any perimeter walls?

Core might stand for a while if the floors and perimeter magically went poof. In reality there was a lot if violent action going on inside including the core floors getting bashed. That said its been pointed out that the visible collapses strongly suggest that floor destruction led the collapse with perimeter perling away lagging floors and core lagging both. Expulsions ahead of perimeter collapse zone are what suggest floor led, while standing core remnant demonstrate core lag.

 

[JSanderO]

Core might stsnd for a while if the floors and perimeter magically went poof. I. Reality there was a lot if violent action going on inside including the core floors getting badhed. That said its been pointed out that the visible collapses strongly suggest that floor destruction led the collapse with perimeter perling away lagging floors and core lagging both. Expulsions ahead of perimeter collapse zone are what suggest floor led, while standing core remnant demonstrate core lag.

expulsions ahead of the floor collapse were contents between the floor being destroyed and the one about to be in about .1 seconds+/-... in that .1 seconds all the air between the two floors and almost everything ON the lower of those two floors was blasted out the windows spaces in the facade. Furniture, contents... gyp board... clg tiles... stuff.

 

[DGM]

expulsions ahead of the floor collapse were contents between ....................

I see you're happy to play into the "truther" games. Keep the stupid arguement going.

 

[JSanderO]

I see you're happy to play into the "truther" games. Keep the stupid arguement going.

Truther games? Happy? I am not keeping any argument going...

 

[AZCat]

Why don't you answer for him? Dave doesn't seem to want to touch the question of how the lower structure could have been weakened to the point where it couldn't support the load above it.

I don't think it's Dave who has this problem.

 

[Fonebone]

Why don't you answer for him? Dave doesn't seem to want to touch the question of how the lower structure could have been weakened to the point where it couldn't support the load above it.

Start the analysis here
exhibit A
WTC1 tower collapse as viewed from the North-East

Red lines are placed on the North and East roof lines (top)
and at the North and East walls at the 97th floor (bottom)
Note that the roof-line on both the N and E fall exactly parallel
to the 97 th floor N and E floor lines with no horizontal distortion
indicating the East West roof-lines also fell parallel to the 97th
East and South floor-lines equally. Note that the antenna structure
likewise falls in a linear vertical path at the exact same instant.

At the 97th floor level all of the external columns were the uniform
sized* modular spandrel sectors. The interior core columns were a mix
of box columns and "I" shaped vertical columns of different sizes.

exhibit B- Exterior vertical column and Interior vertical core column placements.\
Each of the four faces of the twin towers had 59 exterior
box columns and the core contained 47 structural steel vertical columns .

exhibit C Hat Truss
The hat truss was a structural steel grid of steel beams that sat on top of the WTC Core and
connected to the exterior column structure with eight
outriggers beams . Four outriggers ran E-W and four were oriented N-S.
The antenna that collapses with the roof-line in exhibit A was married to the Hat truss
with an antenna base structure was integrated into the hat truss

exhibit D -antenna base that forms the top of the hat-truss
The location of the antenna base in the braced frame hat truss
structure is shown in exhibit C as the black dot. The yellow dot
in the center is the actual antenna.

In order for the entire roof structure, the Antenna, and the 98th floor all
to fall in unison ...
- as one event as shown in exhibit A, every single exterior column,
ALL 59 box columns in all four sides,
a total of 236 would have to neutralized at the exact instant.
Additionally every single one of the 47 core columns would also have to be neutralized
at the exact same instant in time.

 

[ozeco41]

Jeffrey, the issue being discussed is the lack of a jolt in the early stories of the collapse.

Tony no matter how many times you move the goalposts AKA "change horses in midstream" your false claims remain the nonsense they have been since you first posted/published them.

It was YOU not Sander who changed from "initiation" stage to "progression" stage. Do it as often as you want - you may fool a few - you will never fool me. I'm aware of your main dishonest tricks of presentation - confusing the stages ranks about 4 or 5 ( 1 - False premises, 2 Mixing real event reasoning with a fantasy scenario, 3 RBoP, 4 Lie by innuendo, 5 Insert "changing horses"/deliberate conflating ambiguity about here.)

BUT - since you persist in changing horses - here is the truth for BOTH (actually all three - see later.) situations.

1) For the "initiation stage" - that period from aircraft impact through to "Top Block" descending bodily - There was no Jolt of the Missing Jolt type because the scenario for such a jolt never existed in the real event. You have been made fully aware of that reality so your continuing denials are deliberate professional dishonesty.

2) For the "progression" stage - column resistance was essentially bypassed - "ROOSD" for the outer tube and a similar function of beam on beam impact shearing the horizontal members in the core off the columns.

AND - a "third horse" to allow for your confusion (Or deliberate failure to be clear as to the stage you are discussing) at the change over from "initiation to "progression" - this bit of untruth:

. ROOSD cannot propagate on its own in the first few stories and 20 tower stories did not drop on a single floor right away...

Nonsense - both points. ROOSD was under way as soon as the Top Block started to bodily move downwards. Due to impact of perimeter column "sheets" onto the OOS flooring. The logical explanation of that - supported by visual evidence - should be obvious to anyone who has some comprehension of the actual mechanism of "cascading failure" AND hasn't fallen for your "Top Block dropped to impact" nonsense.

Something removed the structural integrity of the perimeter walls early and the focused jets on either side of the corners, which are visible in video, are right where the spandrel beams connect to the corner. This would have caused a slenderness in each perimeter wall and significantly dropped their collective resistance. This conforms with observation and makes sense as to what happened, but it was not natural.

Whatever value there may be in your unsupported speculative bare assertions - reality is that we have valid and rebutted explanations for each stage of the mechanism.

And we know from experience that you will neither:
A) Support your own clams by valid reasoned engineering argument; OR
B) Engage in reasoned debate of the comprehensive explanations that I and other members have put to you.

 

[ozeco41]

In order for the entire roof structure, the Antenna, and the 98th floor all
to fall in unison ...
- as one event as shown in exhibit A, every single exterior column,
ALL 59 box columns in all four sides,
a total of 236 would have to neutralized at the exact instant.
Additionally every single one of the 47 core columns would also have to be neutralized
at the exact same instant in time.

Fonebone - your presumption that Tony needs help in maintain confusion is insulting to Tony.

He is quite capable of continuing his own confused nonsense without any help from you making additional smokescreen.