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Freeman On the Land - A Disturbing Beginning

I was not referring to "violent action" by "force." I meant it needs to be dealt with aggressively from a debunking POV.
 
drkitten said:
Did you even read the OP? How could a movement start in the 1970s and be born as a result of actions in 1992/3?
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I stand corrected.

Replace "born of" with "greatly accelerated by" and my point stands.

Glad to see Travis agrees.
 
zaphod2016 said:
This is a movement that was born as a result of excessive force.

The solution here is civics education, reasonable law enforcement as required, and more excellent articles such as those provided by LightinDarkness and Sunray Breaker.
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Weaver and Koresh were both seperatists who didn't think the gov't had any authority over them. The raid on the Weavers in particular was a direct response to him refusing to submit to the court's demands. Don't get me wrong, it was a brutal, stupid, inappropriate response (as was the raid on the Davidians), but them's the facts.

Also, it shows how conspiracy peddlers get you. They start from a sympathetic, even somewhat reasonable gripe with the government, and then draw you in to deeper and deeper woo. It doesn't matter which side you are actually on politically, if you are against gun control or war, they consider you prey to push their own agenda, whatever that really is.
 
Rogue1stclass said:
Weaver and Koresh were both seperatists who didn't think the gov't had any authority over them. The raid on the Weavers in particular was a direct response to him refusing to submit to the court's demands. Don't get me wrong, it was a brutal, stupid, inappropriate response (as was the raid on the Davidians), but them's the facts.
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Ultimately, Weaver was a criminal, and by refusing to submit to his own arrest, he put his family at extreme risk, resulting in the death of his wife.

Koresh is not so clear cut; as I understand it, later trials revealed he was in fact a licensed arms dealer, and had attempted to cooperate with the ATF prior to the siege.

I still believe both situations could have been resolved without violence.
 
I was watching a few videos on youtube about this Freeman stuff and the comments are full of FOTL supporters. I've tried reasoning with them but they are a stubborn bunch, usually replying to logical arguments against their beliefs by calling people government agents or uneducated (or sometimes just posting plain profanity) I'll post a clear legal definition copied from a reputable source and 98% of the time they will respond with "you have no idea what you're talking about, do some research you f***ing indoctrinated sheep".

Anyway, so I came across this forum, in particular one thread with 26 pages of mostly people agreeing with my view that these guys are nuts. :)

There are some very entertaining youtube vids. Search youtube for "Irene Gravenhorst"

Also, see any of the Marc Stevens vids for a good laugh :D


Unfortunately most of the vids are put up by FOTLers and thus do not show any real court action. We only have their word about the results.

Also google "Report on Irene Maus Gravenhorst, fraud and theft of the Capilano/Kiapilanoq name" Some of the FOTLers call this a hoax but it sounds rather genuine to me!
 
nn69king said:
I was watching a few videos on youtube about this Freeman stuff and the comments are full of FOTL supporters. I've tried reasoning with them but they are a stubborn bunch, usually replying to logical arguments against their beliefs by calling people government agents or uneducated (or sometimes just posting plain profanity) I'll post a clear legal definition copied from a reputable source and 98% of the time they will respond with "you have no idea what you're talking about, do some research you f***ing indoctrinated sheep".

Anyway, so I came across this forum, in particular one thread with 26 pages of mostly people agreeing with my view that these guys are nuts. :)

There are some very entertaining youtube vids. Search youtube for "Irene Gravenhorst"

Also, see any of the Marc Stevens vids for a good laugh :D


Unfortunately most of the vids are put up by FOTLers and thus do not show any real court action. We only have their word about the results.

Also google "Report on Irene Maus Gravenhorst, fraud and theft of the Capilano/Kiapilanoq name" Some of the FOTLers call this a hoax but it sounds rather genuine to me!
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Welcome to JREF.
 
nn69king said:
I was watching a few videos on youtube about this Freeman stuff and the comments are full of FOTL supporters. I've tried reasoning with them but they are a stubborn bunch, usually replying to logical arguments against their beliefs by calling people government agents or uneducated (or sometimes just posting plain profanity) I'll post a clear legal definition copied from a reputable source and 98% of the time they will respond with "you have no idea what you're talking about, do some research you f***ing indoctrinated sheep".

Anyway, so I came across this forum, in particular one thread with 26 pages of mostly people agreeing with my view that these guys are nuts. :)

There are some very entertaining youtube vids. Search youtube for "Irene Gravenhorst"

Also, see any of the Marc Stevens vids for a good laugh :D


Unfortunately most of the vids are put up by FOTLers and thus do not show any real court action. We only have their word about the results.

Also google "Report on Irene Maus Gravenhorst, fraud and theft of the Capilano/Kiapilanoq name" Some of the FOTLers call this a hoax but it sounds rather genuine to me!
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Come on in, mate!

This is Liberty Hall - you can spit on the mat and call the cat a bastard!
 
dudalb said:
It is going to be interesting to see how long these "Patriot Minutemen" last in a firefight with somebody who is actually trained in small unit tactics. About Ten Seconds is my guess.
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Optimist.

5 sec. Tops.

It always amazes me how the fringe gun nuts think that having firearms is going to stop "tyranny".
Have these people taken a good look at the US army lately? I mean, are they going to bring it to its knees with an AR-15 and a Bowie knife?
 
LightinDarkness said:
I decided to make a new thread on this because its pretty off topic from the other one. This is looking at the origins of FMOTL and its connections to terrorism and the "sovereign citizen" movement in the US.

The more I read about Freeman on the Land/Freeloading on the Land, the more I am becoming disturbed at how radical its "founding members" were. Freeman on the Land seems to be mostly originated from the UK, but its roots go back to the early 1990s with the "sovereign citizen" movement.
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I'm quite sure the Freeman "movement" originated in the US in the 1970s, and really back to Posse Comitatus from the late 1960s.
 
DevilsAdvocate said:
I'm quite sure the Freeman "movement" originated in the US in the 1970s, and really back to Posse Comitatus from the late 1960s.
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Also, it appears that in the 1990s, these people began exporting their ideas from the US to other countries, mostly because the US courts (including the Supreme Court) invalidated all of the “tax protestor” and other “Freeman” concepts. The Freeman tried to use foreign (non-US) and international laws (such as the UCC) to support their ideals in the US, without much success. By the mid-2000s, the “leaders” abandoned hope in the US and decided to focus on pushing the message in foreign countries (Canada, Australia, UK), while in the US they have chosen to focus on “paper terrorism” (first filing frivolous lawsuits and unprocessable tax returns (until the government shut those down with penalties), and now encouraging people to file as many requests for information and applications (that the law allows) to try to clog up the bureaucratic government systems and bring the government to its knees (which won’t happen, but costs tax payers whole lots of money).
 
DevilsAdvocate said:
I'm quite sure the Freeman "movement" originated in the US in the 1970s, and really back to Posse Comitatus from the late 1960s.
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Not to forget the Sovereign citizens movement from a decade or two back. These Freeman are the modern western equivalent of the natives who thought magic words or talisman would stop the white man's bullets.
 
In that grindingly long Fotl thread that was my introduction to JREF, the OP alleged that it was illegal to fly the English flag. Based on casual observation, is not the English flag used in much the same way that the Confederate flag is used by the Klan, skinheads and other assorted goons?
 
BaaBaa said:
In that grindingly long Fotl thread that was my introduction to JREF, the OP alleged that it was illegal to fly the English flag. Based on casual observation, is not the English flag used in much the same way that the Confederate flag is used by the Klan, skinheads and other assorted goons?
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Nowadays, it's mainly seen when there's an international football tournament on. Expect massive sales of flags when the World Cup rolls around this summer.
 
Just came across this on youtube. :D

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RetSquid:
Defendant Glenn Stinson purports to be confused as to whether the Governments complaint in this proceeding is directed at Glenn Stinson and Naomi Stinson or against GLENN STINSON and NAOMI STINSON. The difference between the fully capitalized and the first-letter capitalized versions of the Defendants names is immaterial, and provides no defense to the claims asserted by the Government.
US v. Glen H. Stinson
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d3ejmz:
That's an opinion, filed by a legal fiction. Where's your facts, man?
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RetSquid:
LOL!!
Are you saying that a U.S District Court is fictional?
Under Common Law that is now the LAW.
They had to pay $263,724.35 (plus interest).
Those are the facts.
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d3ejmz:
They had to pay because they didn't know who they were, or what they were facing. They entered into joinder at some point.

YES, the US District Court is fictional, you dope! It only exists as a pile of stones, and as a concept in men's minds. Furthermore, it is a creation of men, which makes it subordinate to human beings, who are the highest creations of GOD. (97th Congress affirmed the Bible as the word of God, whether or not that is actually true is immaterial)

where's your logic, man?
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That last statement might be my favourite FOTL quote yet!:D



:D:D:D:D:D
 
Mashuna said:
Nowadays, it's mainly seen when there's an international football tournament on. Expect massive sales of flags when the World Cup rolls around this summer.
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Actually when the last World Cup was on we (we prosecute people) were told that the England flags on cars were a new initiative to identify bad drivers - the more flags the worse the driver. Observational data seemed to bear this out - the record anyone observed was 16 on a white van in London.
I don't know if the same holds true for Confederate flags?
 
LMAO:D Where are they getting this stuff???
I can see how this could get out of hand in a cult-like situation.

IAM: > Your email got passed on to me from a dear friend of mine. My Name is Irene-Maus:Gravenhorst(TM), Agent, Creditor, Author for the Copyright Trademark CAPITALIZED ARTIFICIAL NAME known as (c) IRENE M. GRAVENHORST or any other derivative thereof.

rk: You're one of the Awakened Ones, aren't you? Have you received the usual disinformation attacks attempting to misdirect public attention away from the Efficacy of the Common Law Copyright approach to taking charge of your own Juristic Person?

IAM: > I have been on this journey to freedom since 1997 and I live on the west coast in Canada. What happened to you and your wife was a similar situation to what happened to my girlfriend's father.

rk: Their mistake, wasn't it? In my case, they thought they had a victim who would cringe and capitulate before their Satanic display of power. They picked on the wrong guy, for he knew from the outset that he was a Living, Breathing, Flesh-and-Blood, Sentient, Natural Man and Son of God, and fictional governments and courts have no jurisdiction over the "living" but only over the "fictional" dead Juristic Person whose name is spelled in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS.
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