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Free Britney!

The court of public opinion helped save Britney Spears.
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There are dishonest, corrupt people in court systems, the legal profession, and medical professions (among other professions). No, I don't hate everybody in certain professions, but I recognize the danger some crooked people pose.

Things aren't always easy and straight forward either, because someone might be duped into going along with something, unaware of an abuser's intentions. It's complicated.
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A core of the problem is that these proceedings have been conducted in secret, and apparently there is no appeal from one judge's ruling. All legal proceedings should be public, and there should always be an appeals process.

If Spears had been accused of shoplifting or speeding, she would have had more rights and protections than she did in a case that essentially made her a helpless prisoner.
 
A core of the problem is that these proceedings have been conducted in secret, and apparently there is no appeal from one judge's ruling. All legal proceedings should be public, and there should always be an appeals process.

If Spears had been accused of shoplifting or speeding, she would have had more rights and protections than she did in a case that essentially made her a helpless prisoner.

But what about a mental patient's right to privacy?

There a bunch of people on this board taking treatments. Do you think we should dox them?

Maybe anonymize every case, use a case # instead of a name? Us that system for suspected sex offenders too, anything where the "suspect" may suffer libels even if innocent. Would you want your neighbors to know you were ever accused of kookiness?
 
But what about a mental patient's right to privacy?

There a bunch of people on this board taking treatments. Do you think we should dox them?

Maybe anonymize every case, use a case # instead of a name? Us that system for suspected sex offenders too, anything where the "suspect" may suffer libels even if innocent. Would you want your neighbors to know you were ever accused of kookiness?


It doesn't matter what some particular person might think is best for him. The question is what's best for the community. The only way to insure that the courts are functioning even close to how they should is to hold proceedings in public. Every arrest is a public record; when anyone is charged with any crime their name is known, even if charges are later dropped or they are acquitted at trial. The media might choose to protect a rape victim's name, but it becomes a matter of public record when she has to testify in open court about what the defendant did, and his lawyer gets to cross-examine her.

You don't seem to understand that the issue is not anybody's mental health or treatment. Medical care is a private matter. The issue is that a conservatorship is a legal proceeding that deprives the subject of their basic rights, usually for the rest of their lives, and it is intended for circumstances where someone is permanently disabled by Alzheimer's, brain damage or other severe conditions. It is not supposed to be imposed in cases of ordinary treatable mental illness. There is extensive evidence that the conservatorship process has been abused to seize a subject's assets. Spears' case finally drew public attention, after 13+ years, when she was finally allowed to speak for herself at a public hearing.

Read this account of a conservator who ultimately went to prison, and get back to us about whether all these things should be kept secret.
In the United States, a million and a half adults are under the care of guardians, either family members or professionals, who control some two hundred and seventy-three billion dollars in assets, according to an auditor for the guardianship fraud program in Palm Beach County. Little is known about the outcome of these arrangements, because states do not keep complete figures on guardianship cases—statutes vary widely—and, in most jurisdictions, the court records are sealed. A Government Accountability report from 2010 said, “We could not locate a single Web site, federal agency, state or local entity, or any other organization that compiles comprehensive information on this issue.” A study published this year by the American Bar Association found that “an unknown number of adults languish under guardianship” when they no longer need it, or never did. The authors wrote that “guardianship is generally “permanent, leaving no way out—‘until death do us part.’ ”
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/10/09/how-the-elderly-lose-their-rights
 
But what about a mental patient's right to privacy?
There a bunch of people on this board taking treatments. Do you think we should dox them?

Maybe anonymize every case, use a case # instead of a name? Us that system for suspected sex offenders too, anything where the "suspect" may suffer libels even if innocent. Would you want your neighbors to know you were ever accused of kookiness?

It doesn't matter what some particular person might think is best for him. The question is what's best for the community. The only way to insure that the courts are functioning even close to how they should is to hold proceedings in public. Every arrest is a public record; when anyone is charged with any crime their name is known, even if charges are later dropped or they are acquitted at trial. The media might choose to protect a rape victim's name, but it becomes a matter of public record when she has to testify in open court about what the defendant did, and his lawyer gets to cross-examine her.

You don't seem to understand that the issue is not anybody's mental health or treatment. Medical care is a private matter. The issue is that a conservatorship is a legal proceeding that deprives the subject of their basic rights, usually for the rest of their lives, and it is intended for circumstances where someone is permanently disabled by Alzheimer's, brain damage or other severe conditions. It is not supposed to be imposed in cases of ordinary treatable mental illness. There is extensive evidence that the conservatorship process has been abused to seize a subject's assets. Spears' case finally drew public attention, after 13+ years, when she was finally allowed to speak for herself at a public hearing.

Read this account of a conservator who ultimately went to prison, and get back to us about whether all these things should be kept secret.

In the United States, a million and a half adults are under the care of guardians, either family members or professionals, who control some two hundred and seventy-three billion dollars in assets, according to an auditor for the guardianship fraud program in Palm Beach County. Little is known about the outcome of these arrangements, because states do not keep complete figures on guardianship cases—statutes vary widely—and, in most jurisdictions, the court records are sealed. A Government Accountability report from 2010 said, “We could not locate a single Web site, federal agency, state or local entity, or any other organization that compiles comprehensive information on this issue.” A study published this year by the American Bar Association found that “an unknown number of adults languish under guardianship” when they no longer need it, or never did. The authors wrote that “guardianship is generally “permanent, leaving no way out—‘until death do us part.’ ”

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/10/09/how-the-elderly-lose-their-rights


I. "But what about a mental patient's right to privacy?" @ casebro

I agree there might want to be confidentiality with respect to patient records if the person wants to keep things such as a medical diagnosis, symptomatology, and medication, private, so that is not part of the medical record. But preventing certain information from being public could mask underlying abuse problems. Public records can help make things more transparent, traceable, and in return, make it easier to hold abusers accountable.

There is a balancing act between a person's right to privacy, and First Amendment rights of access to court records.

A good read about sealing court records is in the article, WHEN IT COMES TO SEALING COURT RECORDS, THE PRESUMPTION OF PUBLIC ACCESS REQUIRES THAT YOU “JUST SAY NO” by Senior Attorney Leslie Brueckner and Board Member Beth Terrell, on publicjustice.net, Originally printed in the Trial News by the Washington State Association for Justice, June 2017, Volume 52, Number 10.

Aside from the U.S. Constitution, the article give some reasons Why You Should Care about the public right of access:

First, unwarranted secrecy in the courts undermines the public’s faith in the civil justice system and allows private litigants to highjack the court system for their own ends. The courts are created by the people, for the people. Secrecy perverts the system, and allows a public forum to become a tool for keeping wrongdoing secret. (12)

Second, in some instances, where public health and safety is at stake, the sealing of court records can put lives in danger. To give just one example, through the use of sealed court records and secret settlements, Remington Arms Company was able to conceal evidence that its most popular rifle can fire without anyone pulling the trigger. It wasn’t until Public Justice intervened in a case on behalf of one of Remington’s victims—the father of a young boy who was killed by one of the misfiring rifles—that court records involving the dangerous rifles were finally unsealed. (13)​

Public record of medical information is a highly-sensitive subject.

Information can unfairly and unjustly be used against an innocent person. There can be stigma, and prejudice, against someone with a mental health diagnosis, even though that person poses no danger to themself or others.

II. "Every arrest is a public record..." @ Bob001

There may be instances where there is no public documentation of an arrest, or say, a citation.

Court records can be sealed, impounded, sequestered, lost, misfiled, redacted, or destroyed. There could also be issues that a certain field or fields of information in electronically-filed records weren't filled out by whoever was responsible for filling them out.

Courts seal records without adequate justification, I paraphrase from the article, Sealed cases, sealed documents, sealed opinions, by Eugene Volokh, that appeared in The Washington Post.

From that article:
Too often, judges draw a curtain of secrecy around court proceedings. For example, courts have given special treatment to politicians, lawyers, celebrities, and other notables, sealing their cases to shield them from unwanted attention.​

Clean Slate law in Pennsylvania from the mycleanslatepa.com website says:
"Clean Slate is the first law in the nation to seal certain criminal records from public view through an automated process."

When a record is sealed, it is hidden from public view, and in most cases you can deny it ever happened. The following can be sealed in PA:

  • Criminal charges on which you were not convicted ("not guilty" or dropped charges), even if you were convicted on other charges in the case
  • Summary offenses after 10 years
  • Most misdemeanor convictions after 10 years without another conviction.

Not having certain records can make researching and/or investigating either difficult or impossible.

Public records could help show if there's a pattern, history, and/or connections between people, places, and things.

III. "...guardians...control some two hundred and seventy-three billion dollars in assets" @ Bob001

That quote from the article, How the Elderly Lose Their Rights, by Rachel Aviv, for The New Yorker, is an eye-opener. An estimated $273,000,000,000 (yearly) in assets are controlled by guardians (either family members or professionals).

I'll cover three issues with that quote; 1) the estimate is likely way low, 2) assets go to those not intended by the will of the ward, conservatee, or principal (person in a power of attorney), and 3) there's no true and accurate accounting.

1) the $273 billion estimate is likely way low

$273 billion dollars (estimated) divided by 1.5 million in guardianships (estimate) = $180,000 per person in guardianship.

The Founder of the Guardianship Fraud Program, based in Palm Springs, Florida, was quoted (although not in The New Yorker article), as saying,
"It’s been estimated that there is approximately 250 to 300 billion dollars in the hands of guardians. We believe that is a very low estimate. We probably are over 500 billion, and probably even closer to a trillion dollars."​

2) assets go to those not intended by the will of the ward

In abusive/exploitative/fraudulent guardianship, conservatorship, power of attorney authorizations, it's highly likely the wards', conservatees', or principals' wishes/will weren't followed. They were betrayed

3) there's no true and accurate accounting

Abusive conservatorships, guardianships, power of attorney authorizations, are prevalent. There is little to no accountability. There's little to no oversight. Rampant.

Think of the trauma a family member feels that they couldn't stop the abuse. Think of the trauma the conservatee, ward, or principal feels at being isolated, alone, not having contact with their trusted loved ones. They may have been taken out of their familiar, comfortable environment, once-surrounded by some of their treasured possessions, treasured relationships. Then they are can be taken to an unfamiliar place, unannounced, unplanned by them, but premeditated by the abusers.

The vulnerable are prey to the greed of the depraved. You can kiss your civil rights, civil liberties, dignity, property, relationships, and life goodbye.

You're a disposable good to be manipulated in the cruel hands of abusers.

It's plausible that Britney Spears could've died broken and betrayed by the conservatorship, that on its face, appeared to protect and take care of her. But appearances can be deceiving. Like many other conservatorships, guardianships, and power of attorney authorizations, Britney was the victim of an abusive, exploitative, and fraudulent scheme, perpetrated by many cruel people.

Posted Friday, 01 Oct 2021, by Ernie Marsh, about 9:03 p.m. (EDT)
 
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I. "But what about a mental patient's right to privacy?" @ casebro
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II. "Every arrest is a public record..." @ Bob001

There may be instances where there is no public documentation of an arrest, or say, a citation.

Court records can be sealed, impounded, sequestered, lost, misfiled, redacted, or destroyed. There could also be issues that a certain field or fields of information in electronically-filed records weren't filled out by whoever was responsible for filling them out
......

Of course, the system can and does fail. My point was that someone can't say "keep my arrest/trial/lawsuit secret because it would be embarrassing if my wife/boss/neighbors found out." Celebrities routinely get into the gossip columns for trivial infractions. Legal proceedings are supposed to be public. The alternative is a system of secret courts that would operate free of public scrutiny. We actually have something like that with regard to FISA warrants and intelligence matters, and they are controversial even for that limited purpose. Any legal proceeding like a conservatorship that can deprive someone of their liberty and property forever needs to be conducted in public. As I think about it, if the original proceeding against Britney had been public, and the world could see that she wasn't allowed her own lawyer and the "evidence" against her was secret and possibly fraudulent, the conservatorship might not have been imposed in the first place.
 
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I. "But what about a mental patient's right to privacy?" @ casebro
......
II. "Every arrest is a public record..." @ Bob001

There may be instances where there is no public documentation of an arrest, or say, a citation.

Court records can be sealed, impounded, sequestered, lost, misfiled, redacted, or destroyed. There could also be issues that a certain field or fields of information in electronically-filed records weren't filled out by whoever was responsible for filling them out
......
Of course, the system can and does fail. My point was that someone can't say "keep my arrest/trial/lawsuit secret because it would be embarrassing if my wife/boss/neighbors found out." Celebrities routinely get into the gossip columns for trivial infractions. Legal proceedings are supposed to be public. The alternative is a system of secret courts that would operate free of public scrutiny. We actually have something like that with regard to FISA warrants and intelligence matters, and they are controversial even for that limited purpose. Any legal proceeding like a conservatorship that can deprive someone of their liberty and property forever needs to be conducted in public. As I think about it, if the original proceeding against Britney had been public, and the world could see that she wasn't allowed her own lawyer and the "evidence" against her was secret and possibly fraudulent, the conservatorship might not have been imposed in the first place.


Christopher C. Melcher tweeted:

Christopher C. Melcher
@CA_Divorce

I filed a petition for review in the CA Supreme Court for USA TODAY on its request to reinstate audio access to the public and media in Los Angeles courthouses.
@notedyourhonor helped on the brief. #FreeBritney Petition: walzermelcher.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/2021.10.01-USA-Todays-Petition-for-Review.pdf
8:15 PM · Oct 1, 2021 · Twitter Web App​

Some quotes of the Oct 1, 2021 petition:

Courts are operated for the public, and transparency is crucial for courts to maintain their integrity. By taking away remote access to the public and media in all cases because someone recorded a nonconfidential proceeding in one case, the court has not considered the vital role the public and media play in the justice system. [page 7]​

On August 26, USA TODAY asked the court to reinstate RAAP, or provide other remote access to the public and media for the next hearing on September 29. The request was made under our state and federal constitutions, which provide a presumptive right of access for the public and media to observe court proceedings, and guarantee equal protection under the law. The court denied it, stating that no constitutional right was implicated by its cancellation of remote access because it was providing seats in its courthouses for the public and media. The court also said there are differences between those who may use LACC compared to the public and media.

A petition for writ of mandate was made in the Court of Appeal, which was denied on September 21, 2021. [page 8 & 9]​

The Chief Justice and Judicial Council of California recently recommended that courts expand remote access—even after the pandemic ends—recognizing that audio and video technology increases access to justice for litigants, creates transparency by allowing the public and media to monitor proceedings, and eliminates the need for travel. [page 10]​

The California Legislature recently enrolled a bill to require remote access when courtrooms are closed, noting that it was troubled by the refusal of the Los Angeles Superior Court to grant a newspaper’s request for remote access last year, requiring reporters to risk their health to attend in person. The court created RAAP three months later, but now has reverted to limiting the public and media to in-person access. [page 10]​

It was the desire of Ms. Spears for the statement to be made public because she was unable to effectively express her desire to end the conservatorship otherwise. [page 14]​

(A) The First Amendment and the California Constitution provide a right for the public and media to attend nonconfidential court proceedings [page 29]​

(B) Termination of RAAP violated the free speech rights of the public and media under our federal and state constitutions [page 31]​

(3) No compelling government interest exists in preventing the recording or broadcasting of public proceedings [page 34]​
 
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The court of public opinion helped save Britney Spears.
That remains to be seen.


Sort of, but no. While Britney isn't entirely freed from the abusive conservatorship yet, because Judge Brenda Penny has to rule on Britney's...best interests. There's so much in public view, now.

I just read that Holland & Knight dropped Jamie Spears. I get the sense a lot of people are going to be held accountable for abusing, exploiting, defrauding, depriving Constitutional rights and civil liberties, and kidnapping, Britney Spears.

I used your words, "the court of public opinion." But it's not just opinion; court documents have been made public to provide context, traceability, and factual basis.

Activism by the #FreeBritney movement helped save Britney Spears by bringing this abusive, exploitative, and fraudulently-manufactured conservatorship to the public's attention.

Britney's attorney, Mathew Rosengart (and his team), also helped save Britney.

Other people helped save Britney.

Documentaries, tv specials, helped save Britney.

Through emotional strength, resilience, and perseverance...Britney saved Britney.

Free Britney.
  • Expose the broken systems that perpetuate abusive/exploitative/fraudulent conservatorships, guardianships, and power of attorney authorizations
  • Name the abusers
  • Name their work places
  • Show the connections
  • Show the harm
  • Show the damage

Posted by Ernie Marsh at about 7:47 p.m. EDT, Wed., 20 Oct 2021.
 
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[...]
Theoretically, in California the conservators are supposed to report to the court regularly, and the conservatorship is supposed to be reviewed every two years. But the basic premise of the conservatorship is that a person is permanently incapacitated, and the subject can't hire his/her own lawyer or doctors. So the court doesn't ask "Has this person been cured of his Alzheimer's?" The court only knows what the conservators say and is biased in their favor. Multiple experts have said it's almost impossible to lift a conservatorship once it's imposed.

In another movie coming out soon, as reported on one of the Hollywood gossip shows, a friend of Spears says she smuggled the paperwork for her to request her own lawyer -- not an end to the conservatorship, just her own lawyer -- to her in a public bathroom, and when the papers were presented to the court, the judge rejected the request on the grounds that she didn't believe it was really Spears' signature.

[...]

So the original basis for the conservatorship was outright fraud.

You know what, Bob? You may not believe this, but if all of this comes to pass, and it is determined that Britney should be "freed", I will be just as happy as you. However, I still stick by thoughts of letting this play out with the medical professionals and the courts.

The court of public opinion is not how I would like my life determined. Either way.

I just hope that public pressure hasn't influenced this in a way that makes it turn out to be a cautionary tale that doesn't help her in the long run.


Many broken systems—including but not limited to courts and medical professions—played a part in Britney's 13+ year abusive, court-imposed conservatorship.

It isn't just Britney's dad, or then-judge Reva G. Goetz. Many broken systems, and many people had a hand in this abusive conservatorship. It should be looked into to see what, if any, role that politics, lobbying, financial donations for people running for offices, may have played in general (towards abusive conservatorships/guardianships/power of attorney authorizations).

Britney's situation is highly unusual because her plight has become so public, complete with descriptions and documents.

Maybe now that the court is under such public scrutiny, it could be that justice and accountability will follow.
 
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You are assuming that these actions have "saved" her. We will see.

I think it's your definition of save that needs to be in scare quotes, not that of anyone else. Most of us seem to think freedom includes the freedom to take your own risks and face your own consequences. It's her life, let her run it and live it.
 
You are assuming that these actions have "saved" her. We will see.


Britney has yet to be completely liberated, freed, or "saved," from the abusive conservatorship. So, yes, we shall see. That said, Britney is well on her way to being saved.

The abusive conservatorship/guardianship/power of attorney authorization machine is widespread. Typically there is little-to-no accountability.

I get the sense there was the potential that Britney could've died while under the abusive, court-imposed conservatorship. Spirit broken and financially looted.

Posted by Ernie Marsh on Thursday, 21 Oct 2021 about 12:01 p.m. EDT
 
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I get the sense there was the potential that Britney could've died while under the abusive, court-imposed conservatorship. Spirit broken and financially looted.
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And if she had died as a result of bad medical care or even actual abuse, it would have been seen as proof that she was too sick to function and needed to be imprisoned by conservators.
 
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I get the sense there was the potential that Britney could've died while under the abusive, court-imposed conservatorship. Spirit broken and financially looted.
.....

And if she had died as a result of bad medical care or even actual abuse, it would have been seen as proof that she was too sick to function and needed to be imprisoned by conservators.


Absolutely. Deflection and victim blaming by unjust stigma, prejudice and discrimination.

And, people in a 'caring' position want to look good, and appear as if they cared for the victim and had the victim's best interest at heart. Victims are likely abused/exploited/defrauded by a narcissist's hero/victim complex. Narcissists harm, hurt, and enjoy their power over others.

So an abuser would likely say, as you mentioned, proof that she was too sick to function and needed to be imprisoned by conservators—AND— (I'll add in general), an abuser will tug at your heart strings and say how they tried so hard for so long, to help.

Abusive 'care givers' want to look good...but they aren't really good.

Posted by Ernie Marsh at about 10:59 a.m. (EDT), Wed., 27 Oct 2021.
 
I think it's your definition of save that needs to be in scare quotes, not that of anyone else. Most of us seem to think freedom includes the freedom to take your own risks and face your own consequences. It's her life, let her run it and live it.

That's exactly it. There is no need to "wait and see", and there is no assumption - Britney has been freed from the control of her greedy and exploitative father, which is all that these actions were intended to save her from.

Warp12 is priming to assert any misfortune that befalls Britney Spears after this point as evidence that she was protected by and should've remained under the control of her father; but that will be a little like arguing that a kidnapped child who is rescued from a pedo's closet and then gets hit by a car while crossing the street a couple of months later would've been "better off" if the kidnapper had been allowed to keep him locked up.
 
Warp12 is priming to assert any misfortune that befalls Britney Spears after this point as evidence that she was protected by and should've remained under the control of her father; but that will be a little like arguing that a kidnapped child who is rescued from a pedo's closet and then gets hit by a car while crossing the street a couple of months later would've been "better off" if the kidnapper had been allowed to keep him locked up.

Completely wrong. She has a history of mental illness, addiction and perhaps even self-harm. What is really happening here, is that when she becomes "free", her supporters really won't care about the ultimate results of their "movement". Of course, they will accept no responsibility if something horrible happens; in fact, they will surely blame the family.

Let's just see what happens. Hopefully it all works out well for her. :thumbsup:
 
Completely wrong. She has a history of mental illness, addiction and perhaps even self-harm.

Well no. You can't have a history of "perhaps even" something. If it isn't actually known for certain that a person did something, by definition they don't have a history of it.

And it has already been more than sufficiently explained why "a history" of generalized mental illness and/or addiction - or, indeed, even a current presence of either - neither merits nor justifies a conservatorship.
 

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