How many millions of people around the world do you think are reacting with horror to our actions over the last year and saying "America - Is it time?" We are more universally hated than at any time in our history. And you want me to pass judgement on France? Not this century, I'm busy dealing with our own shame.
Seems to me we as Americans badly need rehab for testosterone poisoning. We need all the friends we can get.
Seems to me we as Americans badly need rehab for testosterone poisoning. We need all the friends we can get.
DanishDynamite
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2001
- Messages
- 10,752
Good grief.Denise said:
I thought mindless France-bashing was no longer in vogue.
Grammatron said:
The border was not exactly unprotected. There was a fortified line (that had been exaggarated in prior German propaganda) that was manned.
Sure, an all out attack against it could probably have succeeded in the end but with heavy cost.
Number Six:
" While the rhetoric flies on the US/France thing none of it really bothers me except for one thing. Correct the following if it's wrong but from what I understand this is what happened.
The 9/11 attaks happened. Afterwards a French writer wrote a book claiming that the whole thing happened completely differently than the media claimed and implied or said (I forget which) that it was all just a plot by the CIA to serve as a pretext for the US to use its miiltary power. From what I understand, the writer was totally and completely serious with his thesis.
Fine. France is a free country and people can write what they like (so long as they use certain government-designated French words in place of English words that are spreading like "e-mail.") But what bugs me is that the book went to #1 on the France bestseller book. That truly is a slap in the face.
The US is famous for churing out crap books by political "commentators" that spin like crazy and that go to the top of the charts but even the worst of those infinitely less inaccurate than a book that says a plane didn't even crash into the Pentagon. That book going to #1 on the charts is akin to a Holocaust denial book going to #1. It still amazes me that it did so well. Maybe I have something wrong in all this because it sounds so ridiculous on the surface."
You may object to the book (I haven't read it) and you may not agree that it was a CIA plot (some people believe this but there is no conclusive evidence).
If you do find the suggestion in the French book offensive do you know who actually did carry out the attacks? Furthermore, and this is an important question because people died as a result, did you support the US's attack on Afghanistan when, at the time, the US and UK Governments admitted that they didn't have enough evidence to prove that it was Osama bin Laden but bombed anyway? In fact, when the Taliban asked for evidence of bin Laden's guilt, so they could consider extradition, the US Government refused to offer any and instead +demanded+ that bin Laden be handed over.
Consider this, for example, how would you react if, after a similar outrage in China, the Chinese Government accused a US citizen, demanded they be handed over, refused to offer evidence, admitted they had no evidence that could be brought before a court, and threatened to bomb if that person were not handed over? Would you consider that acceptable?
" While the rhetoric flies on the US/France thing none of it really bothers me except for one thing. Correct the following if it's wrong but from what I understand this is what happened.
The 9/11 attaks happened. Afterwards a French writer wrote a book claiming that the whole thing happened completely differently than the media claimed and implied or said (I forget which) that it was all just a plot by the CIA to serve as a pretext for the US to use its miiltary power. From what I understand, the writer was totally and completely serious with his thesis.
Fine. France is a free country and people can write what they like (so long as they use certain government-designated French words in place of English words that are spreading like "e-mail.") But what bugs me is that the book went to #1 on the France bestseller book. That truly is a slap in the face.
The US is famous for churing out crap books by political "commentators" that spin like crazy and that go to the top of the charts but even the worst of those infinitely less inaccurate than a book that says a plane didn't even crash into the Pentagon. That book going to #1 on the charts is akin to a Holocaust denial book going to #1. It still amazes me that it did so well. Maybe I have something wrong in all this because it sounds so ridiculous on the surface."
You may object to the book (I haven't read it) and you may not agree that it was a CIA plot (some people believe this but there is no conclusive evidence).
If you do find the suggestion in the French book offensive do you know who actually did carry out the attacks? Furthermore, and this is an important question because people died as a result, did you support the US's attack on Afghanistan when, at the time, the US and UK Governments admitted that they didn't have enough evidence to prove that it was Osama bin Laden but bombed anyway? In fact, when the Taliban asked for evidence of bin Laden's guilt, so they could consider extradition, the US Government refused to offer any and instead +demanded+ that bin Laden be handed over.
Consider this, for example, how would you react if, after a similar outrage in China, the Chinese Government accused a US citizen, demanded they be handed over, refused to offer evidence, admitted they had no evidence that could be brought before a court, and threatened to bomb if that person were not handed over? Would you consider that acceptable?
DanishDynamite said:Good grief.
I thought mindless France-bashing was no longer in vogue.
The worst part is, the French were absolutely right to be against Bushie's war, but oh, let's not remember that. Let's not admit we were wrong, wrong, wrong. Let's simply remember that they Thwarted America's Desires.
I was never so ashamed to be an American as I was during that incredible Freedom Fries hissy-fit. America acting like a spoiled three year old... disgusting.
And you know what? Even then I thought there was probably a lot more shame to come. I was right.
This isn't a time for us to put the chip back on our shoulder, this is a time to turn shamefaced to the world and admit we acted like a**holes.
Denise:
"Israel is one of the foremost nations that deny human rights. My opinion again."
Your opinion is shared by the leading human rights bodies, HRW, Amnesty, and Israel's own B'tselem. I agree entirely but Israel is also supported, financially and diplomatically by the United States (to a lesser extent the UK), in violation of international law and US domestic law.
While I agree with you that Syria also has an abysmal human rights record would it not be better for the US and UK first to put its own house in order and stop supporting murderous and shabby regimes? There's a long list
Similarly, and this returns to your earlier point, if one is concerned with things that bring the UN into disrepute, should we not look to our own actions first? -again, I speak of US and UK actions. Surely, far more damage was done to the UN by UK/US actions in 2003 than has ever been done to it by Syria?
And this returns us to your first point; instead of immediately critcising France for opposing US policy, shouldn't you first decide whether France is correct to do so? France certainly opposed US policy on Iraq (as did 80% of the world, arguably) but was this out of simple pacifism or were there other reasons?
"Israel is one of the foremost nations that deny human rights. My opinion again."
Your opinion is shared by the leading human rights bodies, HRW, Amnesty, and Israel's own B'tselem. I agree entirely but Israel is also supported, financially and diplomatically by the United States (to a lesser extent the UK), in violation of international law and US domestic law.
While I agree with you that Syria also has an abysmal human rights record would it not be better for the US and UK first to put its own house in order and stop supporting murderous and shabby regimes? There's a long list
Similarly, and this returns to your earlier point, if one is concerned with things that bring the UN into disrepute, should we not look to our own actions first? -again, I speak of US and UK actions. Surely, far more damage was done to the UN by UK/US actions in 2003 than has ever been done to it by Syria?
And this returns us to your first point; instead of immediately critcising France for opposing US policy, shouldn't you first decide whether France is correct to do so? France certainly opposed US policy on Iraq (as did 80% of the world, arguably) but was this out of simple pacifism or were there other reasons?
Grammatron
Philosopher
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2003
- Messages
- 5,444
LW said:
Maybe or maybe not. The "ifs" of history are a never-ending debate.
Perhaps Germany would surrender there and then? Perhaps USSR would see an opportunity take a sizable chunk of Germany -- as you undoubtedly know of Stalin's incursions into Finland -- and would have pounded Germans from two sides. No one really knows what could have happened, but I do believe France had a chance and they did not take it because of the overwhelming pacifism of the time.
Tricky
Briefly immortal
Denise? Are you okay? I've never seen you like this before.Denise said:
Grammatron
Philosopher
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2003
- Messages
- 5,444
Sundog said:
As opposed to the stellar "OMFG AMERICA WE LOVE YOU PLEASE HAVE OUR BABIES!" attitude before? I must have missed it somehow. France is way more arrogant than America wishes it was, if anyone needs an attitude make-over it's them.
bignickel
Mad Mod Poet God
While I don't particular care to have my post in this thread, the only alternative is to start my own thread just to post a few words.
I was in Paris for a week last December.
All the French I bumped into were very nice and helpful. Nobody had anything against me because I was an American.
None of them asked me anything about politics (except for an elderly fellow with an English accent (who had been born in France and then moved over to England for most of his life) I was easting with in a cafe; the waiter didn't know English, so he asked him if he'd eat with me to help me out. He was happy to oblige).
I wonder: could a Frenchman visiting America expect the same courtesy?
I was in Paris for a week last December.
All the French I bumped into were very nice and helpful. Nobody had anything against me because I was an American.
None of them asked me anything about politics (except for an elderly fellow with an English accent (who had been born in France and then moved over to England for most of his life) I was easting with in a cafe; the waiter didn't know English, so he asked him if he'd eat with me to help me out. He was happy to oblige).
I wonder: could a Frenchman visiting America expect the same courtesy?
Number Six
JREF Kid
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2001
- Messages
- 5,016
I'm not offended at the book but rather I'm offended that it went to #1 on the bestseller list.
There's as much conclusive evidence that the 9/11 attacks were carried out by the CIA as there is that they were carried out by the French government, but that doesn't mean a book claiming that the attacks were carried out by the French government should be given any credence, much less go to the top of the bestseller list.
And I think there is a pretty good chance that the US, UK, Afghanistan and lots of other nations knew who carried out the 9/11 soon as they happened.
There's as much conclusive evidence that the 9/11 attacks were carried out by the CIA as there is that they were carried out by the French government, but that doesn't mean a book claiming that the attacks were carried out by the French government should be given any credence, much less go to the top of the bestseller list.
And I think there is a pretty good chance that the US, UK, Afghanistan and lots of other nations knew who carried out the 9/11 soon as they happened.
Denise said:
Denise, you really must distinguish between the anti Israel feelings of some members of France's muslim immigrant minority, who are mostly of north african origin, and the opinions of the great majority of the french. The muslims certainly have attacked jews and jewish property and the police are cracking down down on those responsible.
I have never seen any significant evidence that the majority these days are anti-jewish to any great extent. There is a large amount of anti arab and anti muslim sentiment however. To the extent that the arabs are semites I suppose that you could call this anti semitism.
Grammatron
Philosopher
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2003
- Messages
- 5,444
Sundog said:
Well that's all arguable. Especially since their reason to be "absolutely right" had to do with making money off the oil for food program. Excuse me if I do not share your misplaced guilt-trip.
Number Six
JREF Kid
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2001
- Messages
- 5,016
bignickel said:
Of course. Are you serious or kidding?
This French/American dispute thing gets blown way out of proportion.
Grammatron
Philosopher
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2003
- Messages
- 5,444
bignickel said:
Why not?
Here're opposite stories to your posts.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2003-03-03-anti-american-usat_x.htm
bignickel
Mad Mod Poet God
Number Six said:
Perhaps.
But what if he stopped Denise in the street and asked her for directions?
Number Six
JREF Kid
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2001
- Messages
- 5,016
bignickel said:
Touche`. Denise would kick a French tourist square in the nuts. But most other Americans would treat French tourists fine, and vice-versa. There'll always be a few anecdotes for people that claim there's widespread animosity between the French and the Americans to point to but I think that's all they are...anecdotes.