France is it time?

[Linda]

The worst part is, the French were absolutely right to be against Bushie's war, but oh, let's not remember that. Let's not admit we were wrong, wrong, wrong. Let's simply remember that they Thwarted America's Desires.

I was never so ashamed to be an American as I was during that incredible Freedom Fries hissy-fit. America acting like a spoiled three year old... disgusting.

And you know what? Even then I thought there was probably a lot more shame to come. I was right.

This isn't a time for us to put the chip back on our shoulder, this is a time to turn shamefaced to the world and admit we acted like a**holes.

What he said. I don't usually agree with Sundog, but this time he's right on. I'm embarrassed by our foreign policy. I love my country, but I hate my government.

 

[Number Six]

Perhaps.

But what if he stopped Denise in the street and asked her for directions?

And in fact I think even Denise would be nice to a French tourist, although she might come here afterwards and vent about France.

 

[Nikk]

Double Post.

 

[Linda]

Denise? Are you okay? I've never seen you like this before.

You obviously didn't follow the scholarship for Lorelie thread.

 

[bignickel]

Why not?

Here're opposite stories to your posts.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2003-03-03-anti-american-usat_x.htm

Neato. A USA Today article at the height of the Freedom Fries thing. Where's the colorful bar graph in the shape of an order of fries?

I especially like this one: "Anecdotal evidence from across Europe indicates those fears are not unfounded."

Yep: just the kind of thing to defeat my anecdote. Or I should say "lack of anecdote" since I have no events to actually report. Since my "lack of anecdote" was thrown in to counter the 'Franco-American' schism business, all you've done is just thrown out another example. Which is why 'lack of anecdote' is here to begin with.

Finally: did you read the bottom of your article there? "Some like the Americans, some don't" seems to be the only accurate way to sum up the whole article.

Couldn't that be said of EVERY country around the globe?

 

[Number Six]

You obviously didn't follow the scholarship for Lorelie thread.

I think the question we're all wondering the answer to is, "Would Denise accept a scholarship for Lorelei from a Frenchman?"

 

[demon]

Number Six:
"I think the question we're all wondering the answer to is, "Would Denise accept a scholarship for Lorelei from a Frenchman?""

LOLOL

 

[bignickel]

And in fact I think even Denise would be nice to a French tourist, although she might come here afterwards and vent about France.

Originally posted by Denise
To be honest, I as an American, would be very happy if we wiped our shoes to get rid of the sh1t on them that is France. They are our enemy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why exactly would someone be nice with the enemy?

And I am paying very strong attention to the quote, badly worded though it is: "that is" equals "equals". Thus 'rid of the sh1t on them = France. They are our enemy.'

It is entirely possible that have misinterpretted the writer's true feelings here; but I can only go by what they've written. If I was to express hatred towards anyone (which I generally don't), I would damn well be very particular in how I wrote it, so as to not sow confusion. If I wrote it badly, it would be my own fault for mis-communicating something that can lead to hostilities between people very quickly.

 

[Sundog]

I don't usually agree with Sundog...

I seriously doubt if you have any idea what I think about anything, outside of defending people who speak their minds.

But thanks for informing us of your prejudices.

 

[Sundog]

As opposed to the stellar "OMFG AMERICA WE LOVE YOU PLEASE HAVE OUR BABIES!" attitude before? I must have missed it somehow. France is way more arrogant than America wishes it was, if anyone needs an attitude make-over it's them.

Are you seriously going to sit there and assert that world opinion about America hasn't done a nosedive during Bush's reign, and are you further going to simply ignore that on September 12 2001 we had virtually the whole world behind us?

Yeah, I think you missed quite a bit.

 

[WildCat]

Indeed. Only several thousand percent more of their population than the US. Plus, they had suffered heavy casualties from WWI only a generation earlier. They simply didn't have the manpower to put up a prolonged struggle.

It wasn't primarily lack of manpower, rather their strategy was fatally flawed. They were fighting WWI again (prepared for trench warfare, thus the Maginot line) whereas Germany realized it was a new era of warfare (air power and mechanized divisions that could move rapidly).

Successful armies fight the current war, not the last one.

Edited for spelling.

 

[Ziggurat]

Denise:
"Israel is one of the foremost nations that deny human rights. My opinion again."

Your opinion is shared by the leading human rights bodies, HRW, Amnesty, and Israel's own B'tselem.

HRW and Amnesty International are certainly very critical of Israel, but I've never heard them make comparative statements to the effect that they are among the worst human rights offenders. So until you produce evidence to that effect, I'm going to assume you're lying.

Your statement also doesn't match up to simple, common-sense scrutiny. Where are the mass graves in Israel? Where is the systematic torture of dissidents for merely speaking criticism of the government? Oh, yeah, they don't have those.

Similarly, and this returns to your earlier point, if one is concerned with things that bring the UN into disrepute, should we not look to our own actions first? -again, I speak of US and UK actions. Surely, far more damage was done to the UN by UK/US actions in 2003 than has ever been done to it by Syria?

The actions that do the most discredit to the UN are not done by the US, or by Syria, or even Sudan (though their apointment to the human rights commision does make a mockery of the UN). What discredits the UN more than anything else is the action of their own employees. Men like Benon Sevan, who was charged with overseeing the oil-for-food program to aid the Iraqi civilian population but instead accepted bribes and looked the other way while Saddam plundered his nation to build palaces. Men like Kofi Anan, who ignored warnings of the planned genocide in Rwanda, and got promoted for his efforts. And the list goes on.

 

[WildCat]

Are you seriously going to sit there and assert that world opinion about America hasn't done a nosedive during Bush's reign, and are you further going to simply ignore that on September 12 2001 we had virtually the whole world behind us?

Yeah, I think you missed quite a bit.

Yes, France, Germany, Russia and corrupt UN officials would have preferred that all the illegal $$ (billions and billions of it) flowing into their bank accounts from the "oil for food" program remain undisturbed.

But this isn't what you referred to, was it?

 

[Grammatron]

Neato. A USA Today article at the height of the Freedom Fries thing. Where's the colorful bar graph in the shape of an order of fries?

I especially like this one: "Anecdotal evidence from across Europe indicates those fears are not unfounded."

Yep: just the kind of thing to defeat my anecdote. Or I should say "lack of anecdote" since I have no events to actually report. Since my "lack of anecdote" was thrown in to counter the 'Franco-American' schism business, all you've done is just thrown out another example. Which is why 'lack of anecdote' is here to begin with.

Finally: did you read the bottom of your article there? "Some like the Americans, some don't" seems to be the only accurate way to sum up the whole article.

Couldn't that be said of EVERY country around the globe?

Yes, which is exactly my point.

 

[Ziggurat]

Are you seriously going to sit there and assert that world opinion about America hasn't done a nosedive during Bush's reign, and are you further going to simply ignore that on September 12 2001 we had virtually the whole world behind us?

Yeah, I think you missed quite a bit.

So did you, apparently. I'll mention first your use of the word "reign" to describe a democratically elected politician. Complain all you want about the election, but Bush did get elected.

On a more substantive note, perhaps you forgot that there was sizeable opposition to our invasion of Afghanistan. I was in England for a week during that time, and you couldn't avoid coverage about how horrible it was that we used cluster bombs. Much of the "support" we seemed to enjoy so universally when we got bloodied and bruised evaporated as soon as we decided to get off our knees and fight back. And widespread conspiracy theories (such as the French best-seller claiming that it was all a CIA operation) show that even on Sept. 12, that sympathy really wasn't universal.

People seem to be using the fact that our war in Iraq was unpopular with the rest of the world as evidence that we were wrong. Well, popularity isn't all its cracked up to be. Let's say you're in a boat and it springs a leak. Which would you prefer: ten fellow passengers to sympathise with your plight, or nine passengers looking down their nose at you and one who helps you bail? I'll take the later any day of the week. I think the invasion of Iraq was the right thing to do, and I can respect the fact that others will disagree with this assesment. But I could give a damn about the fact that most people in OTHER countries disagree with MY country doing what I think was the right thing. American presidents don't owe anything to French voters.

 

[Grammatron]

Are you seriously going to sit there and assert that world opinion about America hasn't done a nosedive during Bush's reign, and are you further going to simply ignore that on September 12 2001 we had virtually the whole world behind us?

Yeah, I think you missed quite a bit.

I can sit or stand here and assert that. Forgoing the fluke spike and drop that was post 9/11 the world opinion of the USA in no way "nosedive[d]."

 

[Sundog]

So did you, apparently. I'll mention first your use of the word "reign" to describe a democratically elected politician. Complain all you want about the election, but Bush did get elected.

Wrong. He was appointed by the Supreme Court. Gore won the election. But that's for another thread. And I will feel free to use common hyperbole as I wish, thank you very much.

People seem to be using the fact that our war in Iraq was unpopular with the rest of the world as evidence that we were wrong. Well, popularity isn't all its cracked up to be.

I don't know who you're talking to, but if it's me, you've got it backwards. Nowhere did I say we were wrong because world opinion is universally against us. It's the other way around. They now hate us because we were wrong and wouldn't listen, just like some still won't listen. Ignore all the evidence all over the world if you want, your choice.

 

[Grammatron]

Wrong. He was appointed by the Supreme Court. Gore won the election. But that's for another thread. And I will feel free to use common hyperbole as I wish, thank you very much.

Well that's just wrong

 

[Sundog]

Well that's just wrong

As I said, it's for another thread. But it's not as simple as you think it is.

 

[American]

Is it finally time to cut the ties between the US and France?

Trick question. They already cut ties with us.

Obviously, the hatred has grown to enormous levels culminating with the d-day commemoration.

It's not obvious. Only a genius like yourself, and possibly me, could figure this out...

How long can the two nations pretend friendship on the surface?

How long have you and I pretended we are friends?

How long can this go on?

I motion to replace the Statue of Liberty's torch with a big middle finger, and the whole pedestal rotated to face Paris.