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France Goes Nuts!

Luke T. said:


We are having a similar phenomenon occurring in the States right now on the issue of gay marriage ....


Wrong analogy. And there is a debate about gay marriage in Europe too. The scarf problem is a political tool for religious nuts who want to takeover schools, just as introducing creationism in school curriculum is in your country.

I'm pretty sure that there won't be much or a fight over the scarf law, especially given the fact that most muslims in France are in favor. We'll hear and read a lot of screaming and whining from extremists for a while, and it'll all die down, if only because the actual number of those ready to fight is really, really small (the last demonstration in Paris gathered around 1000 people).
 
Flo said:


I'm pretty sure that there won't be much or a fight over the scarf law, especially given the fact that most muslims in France are in favor. We'll hear and read a lot of screaming and whining from extremists for a while, and it'll all die down, if only because the actual number of those ready to fight is really, really small (the last demonstration in Paris gathered around 1000 people).

I'm glad to hear it. I think this law gives the girls who are forced to wear the scarf a chance to be the same as the other kids for a while. I think it will give a chance for fro the families who might be sitting on the fence over whether or not to support extremists an excuse to back off a bit.

I think that France is actually implimenting a separation of church and state, something that Canada and the States don't have the guts to do.

And Luke, you'll notice that I'm stating my opinions as opinions, not as absolutes. America is a fantastic country, but does not have the best solution for every situation. Maybe check out what happens, and in a few years you can start a "where France went wrong" thread, or possibly a "Let's ban religous symbols in schools" thread.


originally posted by Luke
We have quite a few muslims here in the U.S., and they wear the scarves. They look rather exotic, but they don't distract me to the point where I forget what I came to the grocery store for. And I would think the mulim girls' fellow students would get accustomed to the sight.

Schools aren't grocery stores. Have you forgotten how much importance is attached by the students to what is worn in schools? How much it declares what crowd you're with? France is implimenting a practical solution to an ideological problem.

I really think that the deepest you've got into the roots of the law is from what you've read from the French member's posts. It's something that is (sadly) seen as a sterotypical American attitude, projecting American values onto foreign situations.

If it was a basic human right, I might agree. But if it's an issue of "We do it in the States, so it's wrong for them to do it differently", I'd say, watch and learn. Learn what to try, or what to avoid.
 
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DanishDynamite said:
Uhh...no it doesn't. There would be no otracisation if everyone looked equal.

How silly.
 
Flo said:


You don't understand the problem and the context. Outside of some racist nuts, nobody in France want the Muslims out or silent.

Out of curiosity, to what extent do you think French people will allow for a change in their culture? The same question certainly applies to the US.
 
Ed said:


Out of curiosity, to what extent do you think French people will allow for a change in their culture? The same question certainly applies to the US.


You've partly answered your own question: No culture priding itself on being homogeneous (a total delusion) wants to see such an ocean of perfection changed in any way, nor will it admit having been influenced by migrants, especially poor, illiterate and holding false beliefs ;)

Seriously, what kind of a change on what aspects of our culture are you referring to ?
 
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DanishDynamite said:
Ed:How droll.

How Long is a Chinese science fiction author.
 
I'm going to watch with interest and see what actually happens in France over this issue.
In Scotland, we have separate schools (state funded), for Roman Catholic children. As a result, the bigotry which is a major curse here, has been propagated into an era when religion should have been a dead issue. (At least to judge by church attendance figures).

Separate schools meant separate lives, uniforms, social activities, everything. And it seemed to be sanctioned by officialdom. There was an actual recognition at local government level that I and the kid across the street were fundamentally different.

Crazy. Stone age thinking.

Now, as immigrant population increases, appeals are being made for Islamic schools, Jewish schools, Sikh schools- all state funded. To me we have a choice of further compounding a stupid mistake, or of doing away with all divisive ethnic/ religious schooling. I know which I would choose.
 
Soapy Sam said:
Now, as immigrant population increases, appeals are being made for Islamic schools, Jewish schools, Sikh schools- all state funded. To me we have a choice of further compounding a stupid mistake, or of doing away with all divisive ethnic/ religious schooling. I know which I would choose.

We sassenaches already have to put up with this bollocks. State funded faith schools Dear Ed! Its just populist politiking- get the vote of the 'traditionalist' religious wankers. Get elected and damn the consequences. :mad:

The political situation is so frustrating. No hope of seeing a decent government for at least a decade.
 
Jon_in_london said:

The political situation is so frustrating. No hope of seeing a decent government for at least a decade.


Lucky you ! I don't expect anything of the sort in France for at least the next 3 generations.
 
Flo said:



Wrong analogy. And there is a debate about gay marriage in Europe too. The scarf problem is a political tool for religious nuts who want to takeover schools, just as introducing creationism in school curriculum is in your country.

I think you may have misunderstood why I brought up the gay marriage issue.

Because the gay minority has pushed so hard for gay marriage, they have prompted the straight majority to push back and have cause the issue of an actual Constitutional amendment to ban it. So it is analogous because the Muslim extremists have caused the French to push back by banning head scarves. Stupidity all around.

I'm pretty sure that there won't be much or a fight over the scarf law, especially given the fact that most muslims in France are in favor. We'll hear and read a lot of screaming and whining from extremists for a while, and it'll all die down, if only because the actual number of those ready to fight is really, really small (the last demonstration in Paris gathered around 1000 people).

While the extremists are whining, they will also be gaining more recruits. Their extremism prompted this law, and this law will prompt more extremism. Round and round. Somebody should hav broken the chain by not responding to the other side's extremism. That is where I think the French have gone wrong.
 
Tesserat said:
And Luke, you'll notice that I'm stating my opinions as opinions, not as absolutes. America is a fantastic country, but does not have the best solution for every situation. Maybe check out what happens, and in a few years you can start a "where France went wrong" thread, or possibly a "Let's ban religous symbols in schools" thread.

I am quite certain that everything that works in America will not work everywhere. Just as I am certain that everything that works elsewhere will not work in America. But there are certain truths which will work anywhere.

Schools aren't grocery stores. Have you forgotten how much importance is attached by the students to what is worn in schools? How much it declares what crowd you're with? France is implimenting a practical solution to an ideological problem.

The only reason these scarves have reached such importance is because they allowed it to. I am sure that if head scarves were made a big deal, and discussion begun on banning them, they would suddenly take on a very noticeable importance in our schools, and a palpable political element would be introduced amongst our students.
 

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