France and Secularism

[Orwell]

As as an American who is smack dab in the middle of the middle class, I'd like to ask you how the government is mistreating me. My answer to that is that I'm taxed too much. For some reason, I don't think that is going to be your answer.

I never said your gov. was "mistreating" you.

How much do you pay in health insurance? Do you even have health insurance? And how about your kid's education? Can you afford to send them to a good university? And how's your retirement fund going? And what happens if you lose your job? How's the unemployment insurance? How long does it last? How many hours a week do you work? How much vacation time do you have already?

 

[Ziggurat]

And what the hell does "importing anti-americanism from america" means? Do you think that "anti-americanism" is a recent phenomena?

Micheal Moore is imported anti-Americanism. It's quite irnic, in a way. The French, who think Americans are loud, fat, obnoxious, and overbearing, have chosen as a spokesman for the sins of America an American who is loud, fat, obnoxious, and overbearing. But no, I do not think anti-Americanism is in any way new. It's been an ever-present feature of France since before the American revolution.

Do you think the french are particularly "anti-american" compared to other nations?

Well, duh. Of course they are. Throughout their history, France has had an adversarial relationship with the US, because they've usually got conflicting interests. They're occassionally an ally, but as the saying goes, the French are always there when they need us. Pretty much the only exception, the American revolution, France was less interested in helping us than on sticking it to the English, about the only more permanent enemy of France than the US.

And where do you get your profound insights about France and the french?

My insights aren't particularly profound. Yes, some of it is just me insulting the French because I enjoy it (but contrary to the implications of KevinG, I've been insulting the French for well over a decade, it hardly started with Iraq). But it really doesn't take any special insight to understand that France's whole economic/social model is imploding. They've got soaring unemployment, a collapsing demographic, a wellfare system that stangles economic growth, and a growing rent-seeking class that has made the necessary political reforms almost impossible to accomplish. There's nothing profound about that. What would be profound is figuring out how to get them OUT of the mess they're in, and on that note I freely admit I'm clueless.

This thread seems like another round of dumb french bashing!

You seem to be taking this rather personally.

 

[Flo]

The French, who think Americans are loud, fat, obnoxious, and overbearing, blah blah blah ...

Sure, all and every single of them, all the time, from the cradle to the grave.

My insights aren't particularly profound.

I would never have guessed ...

 

[Tony]

Micheal Moore is imported anti-Americanism.

What evidence do you have that Micheal Moore is anti-american? I'll acknowledge he's anti-bush (who is himself anti-american) but I've seen no evidence he's anti-american.

It's quite irnic, in a way. The French, who think Americans are loud, fat, obnoxious, and overbearing, have chosen as a spokesman for the sins of America an American who is loud, fat, obnoxious, and overbearing.

Plagiarism noted.

But no, I do not think anti-Americanism is in any way new. It's been an ever-present feature of France since before the American revolution.

Can you provide a source on that?

 

[Number Six]

The question was the opposite: Would it create more jobs in France if the weekly working hours were increased? Or, would it create more jobs in the US if we adjusted the working week back to 48 hours?

If the US had high unemployment then I think a 48 hour workweek may created more jobs. But I think the economics are different in countries with high unemployment vs low unemployment. Employers in the US are already hiring quickly so they don't need an incentive to hire even more.

As far as France increasing their work week goes I guess we need to specify which group of workers we're talking about...public workers or private ones. Increasing the workweek for public workers wouldn't create more public worker jobs directly but it would effectively decrease the amount taken in taxes in what is currently a pretty heavily taxed country and that might boost the economy. Increasing the workweek for private workers?...I suspect that would create more jobs. If the work week increases then the cost of hiring a new worker decreases and it stands to reason from that that employers have in increased incentive to hire more workers under those conditions.

Of course that logic could be taken to an extreme...let's raise the workweek from 60 to 70 hours to create even more jobs or whatever...but the extreme cases aren't applicable I don't think. I mean, why not just reduce the work week to 10 hours?

Many of the countries France competes with work 40 or more hours per week and as a result a 35 hour work week isn't very enticing to companies. Now if you could somehow get all countries to agree to go to a 35 hour work week then France's position would be relatively improved although in that case the absolute amount of wealth being created would decrease.

Here's my real problem with the way things are in France though, and it's possible that this is mistaken and if so corect me, but I'm under the impression that not only does France have a 35 hour work week but that many workers are forbiddent from working longer than 35 hours! If that's the case it is downright stupid. Discouraging people from working is dumb, forbidding them from working is insane.

 

[Orwell]

Ziggurat, do you realise that you are sounding like a bigot?

 

[Flo]

Increasing the workweek for private workers?...I suspect that would create more jobs. If the work week increases then the cost of hiring a new worker decreases and it stands to reason from that that employers have in increased incentive to hire more workers under those conditions.

Given the fact that employers have publicly admitted that the numerous decreases in taxes and assorted costs linked to employment they got over the last 10 years were not used to create a single job but were pocketed by said employers, I doubt that the number of working hours have any effect on employment in France.

Here's my real problem with the way things are in France though, and it's possible that this is mistaken and if so corect me, but I'm under the impression that not only does France have a 35 hour work week but that many workers are forbiddent from working longer than 35 hours!

Employers would like people to believe it (actually, Antoine Seilleires, the former boss of the employer's union, MEDEF, is ready to complain that having to pay workers is akin to bleeding him dry), and unions would love to enforce it, but it is not the case. The 35h week is unworkable as it is because it has, as usual, been designed by some techocrat (we call them polytechnicians) as a political measure, not an economical one. I suspect that, should we come back to a 40h work week, nothing would be solved since it would be enforced in the worst possible way ...


(edited to try to improve the syntax ... )

 

[Flo]

Ziggurat, do you realise that you are sounding like a bigot?

I suspect he knows and enjoys it ...

 

[Number Six]

Given the fact that employers have publicly admitted that the numerous decreases in taxes and assorted costs linked to employment they got over the last 10 years were not used to create a single job but were pocketed by said employers, I doubt that the number of working hours have any effect on employment in France.

In that case then why are they bothering to work even 35 hours a week? Why not 10? Or 5? Or 1?

While employers are in business to make money rather than improve the lives of their employees, they sometimes accomplish both in the process. They hesitate to hire workers unnecessarily but at the same time if hiring workers makes them (the employer) more money they do it in a second. Why would employers use something like a decrease in taxes purely to line their own pocket instead of expanding their business by hiring more workers when the latter can make them more money too? That's why they're in business...to make money...I have no illusions about that...but if I do what is best for me it doesn't automatically mean I'm damaging you...in some circumstances what is best for me actually helps you. That's the principle behind markets and a million other things like social structures, etc.

 

[Ziggurat]

What evidence do you have that Micheal Moore is anti-american? I'll acknowledge he's anti-bush (who is himself anti-american) but I've seen no evidence he's anti-american.

That's because he tends to say his more anti-American statements when overseas. Here's some example quotes:
http://www.worldthreats.com/Michael Moore/Moore on America.htm

“Americans are possibly the dumbest people on the planet….in thrall to conniving, thieving, smug pricks. We Americans suffer from an enforced ignorance. We don’t know about anything that’s happening outside our country. Our stupidity is embarrassing.”

"You’re stuck with being connected to this country of mine, which is known for bringing sadness and misery to places around the globe.”

“Should such an ignorant people [as the United States] lead the world? Don’t go the American way when it comes to economics, jobs and services for the poor and immigrants. It is the wrong way.”

Can you provide a source on that?

The poorly named French and Indian War comes to mind. So do things like this:
"The French naturalist Comte Georges-Louis de Buffon argued in a scientific publication that the New World's life forms -- plant, animal, and human -- were smaller and inferior to those of the Old, because the New World itself was inferior. America was, according to Buffon, "a land best suited for insects, reptiles, and feeble men.""
http://www.monticello.org/jefferson/dayinlife/entrance/fun.html

 

[Ziggurat]

Sure, all and every single of them, all the time, from the cradle to the grave.

Oh my god, I generalised! Oh my god, generalisations often aren't universally true! Call the logic police!

Yeah, I'm being insulting to France, yeah, it isn't fair to every French person. C'est la vie. But I note that nobody has really responded to the fact that France has major economic and social problems that it isn't doing anything substantive to solve.

 

[Tony]

That's because he tends to say his more anti-American statements when overseas. Here's some example quotes:
http://www.worldthreats.com/Michael Moore/Moore on America.htm

“Americans are possibly the dumbest people on the planet….in thrall to conniving, thieving, smug pricks. We Americans suffer from an enforced ignorance. We don’t know about anything that’s happening outside our country. Our stupidity is embarrassing.”

"You’re stuck with being connected to this country of mine, which is known for bringing sadness and misery to places around the globe.”

“Should such an ignorant people [as the United States] lead the world? Don’t go the American way when it comes to economics, jobs and services for the poor and immigrants. It is the wrong way.”

That's nice, but this isn't evidence of anti-americanism. This is even anti-americanism.

The poorly named French and Indian War comes to mind. So do things like this.

Which was a war against the British.

"The French naturalist Comte Georges-Louis de Buffon argued in a scientific publication that the New World's life forms -- plant, animal, and human -- were smaller and inferior to those of the Old, because the New World itself was inferior. America was, according to Buffon, "a land best suited for insects, reptiles, and feeble men.""
http://www.monticello.org/jefferson/dayinlife/entrance/fun.html

LOL.

That's it? You've made a lousy case.

 

[Ziggurat]

That's nice, but this isn't evidence of anti-americanism.

He's calling Americans stupid, and saying we bring misery to the world. If that isn't anti-Americanism, what exactly qualifies for you?

Which was a war against the British.

Which the American colonists were at the time.

That's it? You've made a lousy case.

I'm lazy. So sue me. My point is, the elite of Europe have been looking down their noses at America since the beginning. You can find plenty of examples if you look. We've always been viewed as a sort of filthy mongrel nation.

 

[Tony]

He's calling Americans stupid, and saying we bring misery to the world.

Both of which can be backed up by facts, I'm not saying he's 100% correct, but he's not 100% wrong. And it's not anti-American to acknowledge those facts.

If that isn't anti-Americanism, what exactly qualifies for you?

Comdemning the values in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, the things which make this country great.

Which the American colonists were at the time.

So it's not anti-americanism if it's a war against the British.

My point is, the elite of Europe have been looking down their noses at America since the beginning. You can find plenty of examples if you look. We've always been viewed as a sort of filthy mongrel nation.

That has some truth in it, but so what? It wasn't exclusive to France. And why are you so concerned with what the European elite used to think?

 

[Orwell]

Oh my god, I generalised! Oh my god, generalisations often aren't universally true! Call the logic police!

Yeah, I'm being insulting to France, yeah, it isn't fair to every French person. C'est la vie. But I note that nobody has really responded to the fact that France has major economic and social problems that it isn't doing anything substantive to solve.

Uhhh, and the US doesn't have major economic and social problems? Can you name me one nation that doesn't have some kind of a problem these days?

 

[Ziggurat]

Both of which can be backed up by facts, I'm not saying he's 100% correct, but he's not 100% wrong. And it's not anti-American to acknowledge those facts.

Your defense of Moore's anti-Americanism is that he's right? What absolute, unalloyed, utter crap.

Comdemning the values in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, the things which make this country great.

No, there's a different term for that. That wouldn't be anti-American, that would be unamerican. And Moore's point seems to be precisely that we AREN'T a great country. But come to think of it, he is kind of unamerican too. He's pretty damned anti-capitalist, and capitalism has definitely been one of the defining virtues of America. "Team America" had it right when they called him a giant socialist weasel.

That has some truth in it, but so what? It wasn't exclusive to France. And why are you so concerned with what the European elite used to think?

I never said it was exclusive to France. And I never really placed any particular importance on it either - I'm just backing up my earlier statements because I was challenged on them.

 

[Ziggurat]

Uhhh, and the US doesn't have major economic and social problems? Can you name me one nation that doesn't have some kind of a problem these days?

Your only response to France's looming catastrophy is that everyone has problems?

It's not simply about having problems, as you'd know if you actually paid attention to what I'm saying. It's about having an economic and social model that is unsustainable. That is NOT a universal feature across countries (though it is common in Europe). Yes, our current budget deficit is not sustainable. But we're also much more likely to be able to change that than France is, because we do not have anywhere nearly as entrenched a rent-seeking class, our government is a smaller fraction of our economy to begin with (making drastic government cuts less painful), and we don't have an imploding population.

 

[Tony]

Your defense of Moore's anti-Americanism is that he's right? What absolute, unalloyed, utter crap.

What's crap is your pathetic strawman.

No, there's a different term for that. That wouldn't be anti-American, that would be unamerican.

In your subjective opinion. I'd say anti-american and unamerican are the same things.

But come to think of it, he is kind of unamerican too. He's pretty damned anti-capitalist, and capitalism has definitely been one of the defining virtues of America.

Slavery, a white christian majority, and segregation have also been defining virtues of America, that doesn't make them pro-American virtues. There is nothing fundamentally American with capitalism.

 

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by Ex Lion Tamer:
Uhhh, and the US doesn't have major economic and social problems? Can you name me one nation that doesn't have some kind of a problem these days?

Depends on the problem, the extent of it, and the possibility of finding a solution.

I would have thought that the French, having enjoyed a statist, socialised economy and government for so long, would naturally be more kind hearted and understanding than other countries I might care to mention. So imagine my surprise that so many of them could get so angry at the idea of coming into work for one day extra in the year, especially when it was in aid of the elderly and unemployed.

Originally posted by Flo:
Common oversimplification, and the two subjects are not as related to each others as they seem.

First, most holidays and school periodicity in France (and in other European countries like Switzerland, where officially "reformed" cantons observe catholic holidays, and vice-versa) have always been based on the religious calendar, for organisational and political reasons (religion has been expelled from governmental matters up to a point. It still has -too much to my views- some influence and dreams of more, on the model of the USA nowaday).

Believers or not, the French are used to that calendar, and the Wall Street Journal has got it partially right "In France , the real state religion is vacation", except it is not a state religion, but a folk one (together with good food).

When exactly did the Church holidays become official ones? Secular, anti-clerical sentiment has been well established in French government circles.

4 reasons:
1. make the French feel guilty about the deaths during the heath wave, rather than making the government accountable for its cuts in healthcare for the elderly and the emergency services.
2. placating the catholic church by changing the suppression of a religious holiday into something like a "day of atonement".
3. free gift to the economy (especially the big companies) of one day of unpaid work.
4. preparing the progressive return to a 40+ hours work week .

Since the French are not all idiots, they don't like being told they are, hence the mess on that day.

1. IIRC France was exceptional in terms of loss of life during the 2003 heatwave. I also remember that one of the explanations for this was that so many healthcare workers were on holiday at the time.

2. Why would the government of a secular country with dwindling church attendanc feel compelled to placate the Catholic Church?

3. Unless things are done differently in France, you've got this the wrong way around. Employers pay their staff for public holidays, therefore if they are asked to work on one of these days off it's not correct to say their employers are getting a day's unpaid work out of their drones.

 

[Ziggurat]

Slavery, a white christian majority, and segregation have also been defining virtues of America, that doesn't make them pro-American virtues. There is nothing fundamentally American with capitalism.

What you mention here were, at times, major American characteristics. But they were NEVER virtues. Why you would ever label them as such?

Capitalism is indeed fundamentally American. I don't understand how you can argue otherwise, unless you're trying to say it's not uniquely American (which I agree with, and which doesn't in any way contradict my point).