For PixyMista – The Problem With Metaphysics

PixyMisa said:
If we take in our hand any volume; of divinity or school metaphysics, for instance; let us ask, Does it contain any abstract reasoning concerning quantity or number? No. Does it contain any experimental reasoning concerning matter of fact and existence? No. Commit it then to the flames: for it can contain nothing but sophistry and illusion.

-- David Hume

I like David Hume.
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I like David Hume too. However, I don't like burning books. Even silly ones.
 
Limbo said:
What is the brain using when it says to itself, "I will now meditate."
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Often lack of sleep, food or water. Occasionally excessive amounts of heat or cold or the use of hallucinogenic drugs of some sort. Sometimes it is simply the brain becoming hyper active in a state of near sensory deprivation.

It reminds me of a story one of my anatomy teachers liked to tell. He had a student who was working extremely hard to finish a final project which was due the next day. She had been heads down focused on the project all day and now into the night. It was past midnight and everything around her was completely quiet. Then she started to hear a strange, rhythmic rushing noise almost like the wind howling past her ears. The sound would stop whenever she stopped working and then started again after she had been working for a while. Eventually she figured out what the sound was, it was her own blood. She had been so focused and silent for so long that she had started hearing the sound of her own blood in her ears. Needless to say she immediately went to bed and was fine the next day.

A long story I admit but the point is this, intense focus and lack of sleep can lead to a verity of strange experiences. And that's without going into starvation or dehydration which can create problems all their own. You would be surprised at the seemingly innocent situations which can cause your perceptions to get a bit confused.
 
Limbo said:
Since people actually experience "supernatural beings" and other mystical things, calling them crazy ideas is wrong. Call them crazy experiences. Crazy experiences which metaphysics attempts to deal with in a systematic way.

Of course, the skeptic paradigm would call such experiences 'hallucinations', but even that is engaging in metaphysics. Its just that the word 'hallucination' smuggles the metaphysics in under the radar.
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There is no system to the metaphysical claim that supernatural being exist. They are BS claims with no substantial evidence. And, yes, I do believe they are crazy ideas, because most people don't just leave it at "I had a weird experience, what could it have been?", but rather go into definitions of what they think they experienced which mostly involves making crap up. An example of this would be assuming that an unidentified object in the sky is a spaceship full of aliens from another planet.

Furthermore, I think they are crazy idea just as I think solipsism is a crazy idea. There is no substantial evidence to suggest that any of them are true (even though they of course are possible) and until the people making these claims provide some substantial evidence, I will continue to file them under "crazy ideas".
 
The True Scotsman said:
There is no system to the metaphysical claim that supernatural being exist.
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Sure there is. Individual and group experiences of metaphysical entities are systematically induced by mystics in various ways. That's what they do. That's what a mystical tradition is. And from the experiences of mystics, metaphysical models are built and refined over time, using symbols and words and art and rituals and whatnot. Mystical traditions, or as Sam Harris calls them contemplative traditions, use metaphysical models as mystical reference points, while remembering that the map is not the territory.

Systematically induced mystical experience is the primordial basis for metaphysical models and speculation. Not mere ideas or imaginings or rants of madmen.
 
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PixyMisa said:
No.
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If Limbo is correct then some "mystics" are doing something very much like Blondlot was doing investigating N-rays - using quasi-scientific methods incompetently to get to silly results, but nonetheless using quasi-scientific methods.

Systematically getting off your tits and attempting to make up a coherent explanation for your hallucinations turns out to be useless as a way of figuring out how the universe works, and that's not unexpected from a materialist perspective, but it's still an attempt to figure out how the universe works.

If we happened to live in a dualist universe where minds could have adventures on their own, or an idealist universe where we were part of the mind of God and could become aware of that, or aliens had genetically engineered us so that we would become aware of secret messages encoded in our DNA if we got off our tits on LSD, then it might have worked.
 
PixyMisa said:
If we take in our hand any volume; of divinity or school metaphysics, for instance; let us ask, Does it contain any abstract reasoning concerning quantity or number? No. Does it contain any experimental reasoning concerning matter of fact and existence? No. Commit it then to the flames: for it can contain nothing but sophistry and illusion.

-- David Hume

I like David Hume.
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Me too, :)
 
Limbo said:
Sure there is. Individual and group experiences of metaphysical entities are systematically induced by mystics in various ways. That's what they do. That's what a mystical tradition is. And from the experiences of mystics, metaphysical models are built and refined over time, using symbols and words and art and rituals and whatnot. Mystical traditions, or as Sam Harris calls them contemplative traditions, use metaphysical models as mystical reference points, while remembering that the map is not the territory.

Systematically induced mystical experience is the primordial basis for metaphysical models and speculation. Not mere ideas or imaginings or rants of madmen.
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Well, if you consider making multiple self-contradictory claims a system, then I guess all I can say is "my banana is not a banana".
 
Solitaire said:
Can we consider metaphysics part of philosophy? I found this paragraph in a letter written by Hermon von Helmholtz in 1902 that suggests that it is not.

“In my opinion nothing has been so pernicious to philosophy as its repeated confusion with metaphysics. The latter has played much the same part in relation to the former as that which astrology has been borne to astronomy. It has been metaphysics that turned the attention of the great majority of scientific amateurs to philosophy, and attracted troops of proselytes and disciples, who no doubt in many cases have wrought more harm than the bitterest opponents could have effected. They were led on by the delusive hope of obtaining insight, with little expenditure of time or trouble, into the deepest order of things and the nature of the human spirit, into the past and the future of the world – in which lay the main interest that incited so many to take up the study of philosophy, just as the hope of prognostications for the future formerly lead to the fostering of astronomy. What philosophy has so far been able to teach us, or with continued study of the facts involved, may one day be able to teach us, is of the utmost importance to the scientific thinker, who must know the exact capabilities of the instrument with which he is to work, that is, the human intellect. But as regards the satisfaction of this dilettante curiosity, or the still more frequent egoism of the individual, these serve and abstract studies will continue to yield only small and reluctant response: just as the mathematical mechanics of the planetary system and the calculations of perturbations are far less popular, despite their admirable systematic completeness, than was the astrological superstition of old days.”
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I didn't remember who Helmholtz was, so I searched his name in Google.The man was a true giant, with important discoveries in physics and physiology. Helmholtz was the first to enunciate the law of conservation of energy. His study of nerve transmission and muscle contraction proved that a muscle contracts in response to purely mechanical laws of physics, eliminating the need for a mystical vital force.
http://www.vigyanprasar.gov.in/scientists/HvonHelmholtz.htm

The paragraph quoted by Solitaire has not been attended by those defending metaphysics. What insight into the deepest order of things and the nature of the human spirit has been obtained by metaphysics? An insight that could be translated to practical benefit for humanity, not egoistical feel-good sensations.
 
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PixyMisa said:
If we take in our hand any volume; of divinity or school metaphysics, for instance; let us ask, Does it contain any abstract reasoning concerning quantity or number? No. Does it contain any experimental reasoning concerning matter of fact and existence? No. Commit it then to the flames: for it can contain nothing but sophistry and illusion.

-- David Hume

I like David Hume.
Click to expand...

Me too.
 
Kevin_Lowe said:
If Limbo is correct then some "mystics" are doing something very much like Blondlot was doing investigating N-rays - using quasi-scientific methods incompetently to get to silly results, but nonetheless using quasi-scientific methods.
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I am correct. I wouldn't be here otherwise. Mystics have systematically explored the human psyche for ages. Initiates of mystical traditions use their quasi-scientific techniques to achieve altered states of consciousness, and then they explore the psyche in a structured way. They return to ordinary consciousness and try to express the ineffable experiences through the use of imperfect things like words and numbers and art and action, and over time an imperfect metaphysic evolves.

The metaphysic will naturally have two aspects. An esoteric aspect, and an exoteric aspect. The esoteric, or inner, aspect is what the initiated mystics use among themselves in a mystical tradition. The exoteric aspect is a simplified version of that for the uninitiated laypersons of their culture - a mythology.

Mystics are like astronauts of the mind. They are 'psychonauts'. They dive into the vast waters of the unconscious mind and they perform actions. But they can only ever use symbols, and symbols are like a finger pointing to the moon. If one isn't careful one can end up focusing on the finger. A good symbol will be 'transparent to the transcendent', as Joseph Campbell put it. Not opaque.

Anyway I could ramble on, but the point is that initiates of the great mystical traditions used structure and cooperation and various physical and mental tools to explore the psyche, and a metaphysical schema evolves from that. So it turns out that metaphysical schemas are like primitive models of the human psyche itself, once the symbolism is deciphered.

It's not a matter of some imaginative wishful thinker sitting down one day to cook up some crazy ideas or some such thing.
 
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Limbo said:
I am correct. I wouldn't be here otherwise. Mystics have systematically explored the human psyche for ages. Initiates of mystical traditions use their quasi-scientific techniques to achieve altered states of consciousness, and then they explore the psyche in a structured way. They return and try to express the ineffable experiences through the use of tricky things like words and numbers and art and action, and over time a metaphysic evolves.
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No.

The metaphysic will have two aspects. An esoteric aspect, and an exoteric aspect. The esoteric, or inner, aspect is what the mystics use among themselves in a mystical tradition. The exoteric aspect is a simplified version of that for the laypersons of their culture - a mythology.
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No.

Mystics are like astronauts of the mind. They are 'psychonauts'. They dive into the vast waters of the unconscious mind and they perform actions. But they can only ever use symbols, and symbols are like a finger pointing to the moon. If one isn't careful one can end up focusing on the finger. A good symbol will be 'transparent to the transcendent', as Joseph Campbell put it. Not opaque.
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No.

Anyway I could ramble on, but the point is that initiates of the mystical traditions used structure and cooperation and various physical and mental tools to explore the psyche, and a metaphysical schema evolves from that.
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No.

But hey, at least you're consistent.

It's not a matter of some imaginative wishful thinker sitting down one day to cook up some crazy ideas or some such thing.
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Except, of course, when it is exactly that.
 
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