For PixyMista – The Problem With Metaphysics

[Robin]

We get versions of this argument a lot.

Claim: It takes intelligence to produce anything

Definition : Intelligence : the process by which anything is produced.

It is like the old proof of Materialism:

Claim: Everything is matter
Definition: Matter: what everything is

 

[H'ethetheth]

I stated a law of the universe - that all things need intelligence to be established - and backed it up with examples. What more evidence is needed?

Um...well, for starters: all the other examples.

If I showed you three black crows, would that convince you that all crows are black?

 

[Craig4]

How would I go about testing whether or not quarks or viruses have intelligence?

 

[marplots]

You would have to start by narrowing down what you mean by intelligence. That's too smooshy a term. Your hypothesis needs to be more concrete. Then, after you've done your study and published, the news media, all on their own, will gladly put the term "intelligence" back into all the headlines.

 

[PDoug]

Did I win this debate?

 

[PDoug]

Where is your proof that it takes intelligence to establish diseases?

The following is from dictionary.com

in·tel·li·gent

5. Archaic . having understanding or knowledge (usually fol. by of ).

Given that microorganisms display understanding and capacities to thwart and overcome our bodies' defense systems (in many cases to the point where don't know how to counteract them), they show signs of intelligence and are hence intelligent.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Intelligence has established that there is no debate.

 

[PDoug]

He's already admitted that this is nothing more than equivocation. Or, at least, he's proven that he's doing nothing more than equivocating - I don't know whether he realizes it or not.

I didn't equivocate. I clarified the definition of intelligence I was using in this discussion. E.g. note the following posts:

I'm not sure what you mean. All I'm saying is that all things have their own intelligences, and man's own intelligence is unique to him.

(See here.)

No. I'm saying there exists a range of intelligences throughout the universe. I'm saying humans, animals, quarks, time, the world's sophisticated ecosystem, all have diverse intelligences. It is an old notion - not my recent invention.

(See here.)

The notion of there being a variation of intelligence among things that exist, is alluded in the following religious texts:

Numbers 5

30 Or when the spirit of jealousy and suspicion comes upon a man and he is jealous and suspicious of his wife; then shall he set the woman before the Lord, and the priest shall execute on her all this law

Proverbs 1

20 Wisdom cries aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the markets;

Proverbs 4

6 Forsake not [Wisdom], and she will keep, defend, and protect you; love her, and she will guard you.

4 Ezra 7

53) I said, "Lord, how could that be?"
54) And he said to me, "Not only that, but ask the earth and she will tell you; defer to her, and she will declare it to you.
55) Say to her, `You produce gold and silver and brass, and also iron and lead and clay;

4 Ezra 12

1) While the lion was saying these words to the eagle, I looked,
2) and behold, the remaining head disappeared. And the two wings that had gone over to it arose and set themselves up to reign, and their reign was brief and full of tumult.
3) And I looked, and behold, they also disappeared, and the whole body of the eagle was burned, and the earth was exceedingly terrified. Then I awoke in great perplexity of mind and great fear, and I said to my spirit,
4) "Behold, you have brought this upon me, because you search out the ways of the Most High.

The Apocryphon of John

4 And [I asked so that I might [know.

And he said] to me, "The Monad [is a mo]narch[y with]out any*thing existing over it. [It exists as the God] and Father of the [A]ll., the [invisi]ble which dwells above [the All, ...] imperishableness which exi[sts as the] pure light upon which it is not possible for any eye to] gaze.

[It is the] invisible [Spirit], and It is not appropriate [to consider It] to be like the g[o]ds or that It is something similar. For It is more than divine, [without anything] existing over It. For nothing lords [over It].


.
.
.

And [Its thinking became a] thing. And she who ap[pea]red in Its presence in [the lu]min[escence of] Its light was revealed. She is the first [power who came into] being before them a[ll.. She appeared] from Its thought, [the Pronoia of the All], her light [. . .] light, the [perfect] power, that is, [the image of the perfect invisible vir*ginal Spirit, [the first po]wer, the glory of Barbelo, the glory which is perfect in the aeons, the glory of the revelation.

[She] glorified the virginal Spirit and praised It since she had ap*peared because of It. That one is the first Thought (Protennoia) of Its image. She became a womb for the All because she is prior to them all, the Mother-Father, the first Human, the holy Spirit, the triple male, the triple power, the triple named androgyne, and the eter*nal aeon among the invisible ones, and the first to come forth.

6 Barbelo requested the invisible virginal Spirit to give her Fo[re]kn[ow]ledge. And the Spirit stared. When [It stared], Fore*knowledge was revealed [an]d stood with [P]ronoia. She is from] the Thought of the invisible [vir]ginal Spirit. She glorified It a[nd] Its perfect power [Ba]rbelo, fo[r] it was b[eca]use of her that she had come into being.

A[nd again she reque[st]ed (It) to give her In[destr]uct[ibility]. And It stared. And in [Its staring], Indest[ruct]ibility [was revealed. And she stood with Thought and Foreknowledge. She glorified the Invisible one and Barbelo, for they had come into being because of her.

And Barbelo requested (It) to give her Ete[r]nal L[ife]. And the in[v]isible Spirit stared. And in Its staring, Eternal Life was re*vealed. And [they s]to[od]. They glorified the invisible [Spit]it and Barbelo, for they had come into being because of her.

Therefore while you may say that I was not originally crystal clear over the definition of intelligence I was using, you cannot say I equivocated.

 

[PDoug]

They are just as reliable as the Bible upon which you based your earlier argument.

Actually if you have faith correctly (i.e. per the instructions in the Bible on how to do so) you will see for yourself, where it uniquely produces enduring, fundamental goodness in your behavior. Now if a phenomenon is able to unite with you and overcome the imperfect influences of this world, it must be perfect and greater than the world. If this unique, perfect phenomenon produced the Bible and harmonious religious texts, it follows that these texts must be unique and perfect as well - since all things reflect the qualities of their creators. Therefore what separates the Bible and harmonious texts from everything else in this world, is the fact that they were produced by a unique, perfect phenomenon, which anyone can see for himself is real, when he has faith correctly.

 

[Nonpareil]

Did I win this debate?

No.

The following is from dictionary.com

in·tel·li·gent

5. Archaic . having understanding or knowledge (usually fol. by of ).

Given that microorganisms display understanding

No they don't.

Case closed. Your argument is invalid; your examples are faulty. Even if they weren't, you haven't given a proof.

I didn't equivocate.

Yes, you did.

I clarified the definition of intelligence I was using in this discussion.

That doesn't make it any less of an equivocation. You are attempting to switch between your definition of intelligence and the popular definition of intelligence. Or, at least, I thought you were - as it turns out, you merely completely and utterly failed to understand that microorganisms do not possess intelligence.

The notion of there being a variation of intelligence among things that exist, is alluded in the following religious texts:

Which are not admissible as evidence.

Therefore what separates the Bible and harmonious texts from everything else in this world, is the fact that they were produced by a unique, perfect phenomenon

No, they weren't.

which anyone can see for himself is real, if he has faith correctly.

In other words, if he wants to believe that it is so.

 

[PDoug]

PDoug, guess what: you are actually a cat!

My proof:

Cats have lungs. You have lungs.
Cats have eyes. You have eyes.
Cats have fingers. You have fingers. Yes, cats *do* have fingers. Those things with claws on the end, those are fingers, just like those things you've got with claws (er...fingernails) on them.

Ergo, you are a cat.

Prove me wrong. No, seriously.

I'm not sure what you mean. All I'm saying is that things are established and maintained by (a range of) underlying intelligence. If every single phenomenon you encountered was seen to be made up of atoms, wouldn't you stipulate that all things were made up of atoms? However we know that there are a plethora of things which aren't made up of atoms. E.g. abstract things such as love, hate, jealousy, and other phenomena such as light. Therefore we could not make that stipulation. However, things created by man, animals, and microorganisms, are easily seen require intelligence without exception. That is why I'm safely able to make my stipulation.

 

[PDoug]

I'll be back tomorrow in the afternoon, Eastern Time.

 

[Nonpareil]

I'm not sure what you mean. All I'm saying is that things are established and maintained by (a range of) underlying intelligence.

And you've offered no proof of this assertion.

If every single phenomenon you encountered was seen to be made up of atoms, wouldn't you stipulate that all things were made up of atoms?

No.

However, things created by man, animals, and microorganisms, are easily seen require intelligence without exception.

It's arguable that animals and microorganisms are not intelligent, as we've already stated.

That is why I'm safely able to make my stipulation.

Even admitting that animals and microorganisms are intelligent, your "proof" is still invalid.

 

[Hokulele]

Anthropomorphization makes the universe sad.

 

[Craig4]

Actually if you have faith correctly (i.e. per the instructions in the Bible on how to do so) you will see for yourself, where it uniquely produces enduring, fundamental goodness in your behavior. Now if a phenomenon is able to unite with you and overcome the imperfect influences of this world, it must be perfect and greater than the world. If this unique, perfect phenomenon produced the Bible and harmonious religious texts, it follows that these texts must be unique and perfect as well - since all things reflect the qualities of their creators. Therefore what separates the Bible and harmonious texts from everything else in this world, is the fact that they were produced by a unique, perfect phenomenon, which anyone can see for himself is real, when he has faith correctly.

Would you care to provide some evidence of this?

 

[tsig]

Anthropomorphization makes the universe sad.

People who confuse their ego with the universe makes me sad.