Flyover Witnesses

Who are you talking about?

There is not one witness account in the entire investigative body of evidence that directly contradicts the north side claim.

Not even one.

From post #3 in this thread, made by you:
2. Robert Turcios.

Robert's independently confirmed testimony filmed on location has the plane definitively on the north side of the citgo station making it irreconcilable with the physical evidence and therefore supporting the flyover alternative.

Here you are stating that the fact that these witnesses saw the plane on the north side of the Citgo station means there was a flyover. Therefore every other witness that saw the impact of the plane into the pentagon directly contradicts the north side claim.


We assert that most of the small unrecognizable debris was blown out of the obliterated construction trailers that were in front of the generator trailer.

There were barely any significant sized pieces outside (limited to image below) and there are a multitude of ways they could have been inconspicuously planted in such a highly secure and controlled area like this. Perhaps even 10 minutes or so BEFORE the event when nobody was paying attention.

Ah, the small and minor debris on the lawn claim. This has shown to be completely wrong in the past in several threads here, I will go find a link and edit it in.

Edit: From the excellent 911myths site: http://www.911myths.com/html/757_wreckage.html
 
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You are being disingenuous.

I don't think so. Claiming that no mention of a flyover is evidence of a cover-up of said flyover is an unfalsifiable claim.

So no matter how much you people keep insisting that the finite number of often inaccurately reported, always incomplete, and sometimes completely fabricated media published accounts that exist represent the entire witness pool;

Which media published accounts were "completely fabricated", and which were "inaccurately reported"?
 
I was under the impression that the impact itself contradicted the "north side of citgo" witnesses.

Yes it would if there was one but there wasn't.

The fact that people were successfully fooled into believing the impact just like the citgo witnesses were does not contradict the north side evidence.

The fact that people who might have noticed a plane fly over the building immediately after the explosion were convinced by the 2nd plane cover story that this detail was inconsequential does not contradict the north side claim either.
 
So no matter how much you people keep insisting that the finite number of often inaccurately reported, always incomplete, and sometimes completely fabricated media published accounts that exist represent the entire witness pool; CIT has proven that this is patently untrue.



So, how many witnesses reported an airliner fly low to the ground, at the Pentagon, then pull up at the last minute and fly over it?

The evidence exists – we’re just prevented from knowing that it exists. That’s what the creationist and every other type of charlatan says, isn’t it?
 
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Who are you talking about?

There is not one witness account in the entire investigative body of evidence that directly contradicts the north side claim.

Not even one.
You mean like Penny Eglas:
Traffic was at a standstill. I heard a rumble, looked out my driver's side window and realized that I was looking at the nose of an airplane coming straight at us from over the road (Columbia Pike) that runs perpendicular to the road I was on. The plane just appeared there- very low in the air, to the side of (and not much above) the CITGO gas station that I never knew was there.
I guess that's one.
We assert that most of the small unrecognizable debris was blown out of the obliterated construction trailers that were in front of the generator trailer.

There were barely any significant sized pieces outside (limited to image below) and there are a multitude of ways they could have been inconspicuously planted in such a highly secure and controlled area like this. Perhaps even 10 minutes or so BEFORE the event when nobody was paying attention.

[qimg]http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a327/lytetrip/Pentagon/096b.jpg[/qimg]
Yeah, without anyone noticing anyone carrying the big shiny pieces of metal from the deadlocked freeway. That must be an everyday occurrence. Please.
 
Where is there room for the engine OR the wing to enter the building?

Nowhere.

You're a young man. I'm surprised your eyes and browsing skills are so bad.

I already posted a photo of the damage done to the outer face on the right side of the main impact point. Here's a photo of the damage done on the left side of the main impact hole (it also shows some of the main hole):

hole01.jpg


The distance from the edge of the left side of the left hole to the right edge of the right side hole is at least 70 to 80 feet (some sources say it is more like 90). The diameter of the fuselage of a 757 is about 13 feet. That's consistent with the central hole. The outer edge of the engines on a 757 are at most 20 feet from the outer wall of the fuselage. So clearly, the engines hit the structure within the boundaries of the holes in those photos. Most of the wing did too. Only the portion of the wing that did not contain much in the way of a fuel bladder lies outside those holes (without the added mass, that portion of the wing could not penetrate). However, as you can see in the photos, there was damage to the facade outside the holes. That was caused by the tips of the wings.

The following image helps to visualize the angle of impact and the points of damage compared with the above photos. The outside black lines in the photo line up with column 6 and column 22. The left engine lines up with columns 11-12. The right engine lines up with columns 16-17 and the nose impacts ~ at column 14.

hole12.jpg


Even the height of the holes in the images match that of a 757. The top of the tail is 44 feet above the ground when the landing gear are down. In that configuration, the top of the fuselage is only be about 22 feet above the ground. The top of the wing is about 40% of the way down from the top of the fuselage. Thus, the top of the wing is about 12 to 13 feet above the ground, with the landing gear down. If the landing gear are up, as eyewitnesses said was the case that day, the body of the plane, except for the tail will fit into the hole you see in the photos. The tail, being relatively light compared to the wings where there were fuel bladders, shattered on impact and only lightly damaged the facade.

Everything makes perfect sense, LT.
 
Change the word "perp" to "suspect" and the point stands without the fallacy.

There are two choices here.....

Either the official story is correct or the truth movement is correct in that it was an inside job.

For the sake of discussion if you can step outside of your bias for 2 seconds and hypothetically consider it was an inside job you will understand how all video data would have been vetted and/or manipulated.



Let's sum up, Lyte,

There are absolutely no--ZERO--witnesses to your imaginary flyover. Nobody saw a plane head toward the Pentagon, then suddenly pull up and fly over it.

We all get the idea that if someone HAD witnessed a flyover, it would have been a huge story.

NO STORY = NO FLYOVER

The forensic evidence destroys your fantasy. There is nothing in your bag of tricks that casts doubt on the physical evidence, i.e., aircraft wreckage and human remains.

Questions about your methodology remain. I asked you to draw a conclusion from a hypothetical example I gave. For obvious reasons, you ignored me. I will ask again, and will continue to ask until you respond:

Let's talk about your research skills. Imagine that two elderly women describe their experiences in a German concentration camp. Their descriptions of a particularly sadistic guard match right down to the mole on his left cheek, with a single difference: one woman claims that he had brown eyes; the other says they were blue. Now, which of the following does this suggest to you:

a) The Holocaust was a hoax;

b) Both accounts have been discredited;

c) One woman provides a definitive account; the other can be dismissed as hopelessly misleading.

d) One woman's memory--for this precise detail--is more accurate than the other's, but both of them retain clear memories of the experience.
 
From post #3 in this thread, made by you:


Here you are stating that the fact that these witnesses saw the plane on the north side of the Citgo station means there was a flyover. Therefore every other witness that saw the impact of the plane into the pentagon directly contradicts the north side claim.

Nope.

Because even the north of the citgo witnesses believe the plane hit.

This proves that most people were fooled by the sleight of hand deception as demonstrated in my avatar.



Ah, the small and minor debris on the lawn claim. This has shown to be completely wrong in the past in several threads here, I will go find a link and edit it in.

Edit: From the excellent 911myths site: http://www.911myths.com/html/757_wreckage.html

You have not provided an image of a significant sized piece that was outside that I didn't include.
 
You mean like Penny Eglas:

I guess that's one.

Wrong. She does not specify which side of the citgo the plane was and the fact that she has it coming "straight at us" supports the north side flight path.

And her claim of "80 feet" puts it too high to hit the light poles and certainly NOT low and level to the ground.

Penny supports the north side claim and is either lying about the impact or embellishing details because she was fooled into believing it just like the citgo witnesses.

Yeah, without anyone noticing anyone carrying the big shiny pieces of metal from the deadlocked freeway. That must be an everyday occurrence. Please.
Argument from incredulity.
 
Because even the north of the citgo witnesses believe the plane hit. This proves that most people were fooled by the sleight of hand deception...



That's got to be a Stundie (more seriously though, false dichotomy fallacy.)
 
There were barely any significant sized pieces outside (limited to image below)

There were far more pieces of debris than what you showed. Take for instance this image: http://www.news.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/010911-N-6157F-001.jpg. It shows a lawn littered with them.

But most were not large pieces. Why would you expect to find lots of large pieces outside the building? Have you any idea what a 500 mph impact into concrete does to something like a aluminum plane (at least to those portions without the mass needed to penetrate the concrete)?
 
Only if you dismiss the proven north side claim out of hand.

Which you all do.



No, either way it’s a false dichotomy fallacy. (Further, that statement itself if an example of the begging the question fallacy.)
 
Because even the north of the citgo witnesses believe the plane hit.

In that case, what is your position you are trying to support?

Initially you were saying that the north side flight path supported something other then the plane hitting the pentagon (ie: flyover) because it did not line up with the light pole damage.

Now you are saying that the offical path is wrong and that the plane flew to the north side of the Citgo station, but still hit the pentagon?

If so, what is the point of this thread? If you agree the plane hit the pentagon, why does it's flight path matter? If you still say that it did NOT hit the pentagon please restate your entire position. It seems to have shifted during the course of this thread because you just said that the plane hit the pentagon even though the flight path was to the north of the Citgo.
 
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You are being disingenuous.



No, Lyte, you are being dishonest. In fact, your entire grubby little money-making scheme has been exposed and uprooted.


If you fail to see how planted witnesses/fabricated accounts support our theory then you will understand very little when discussing this information.


There were no--ZERO--"planted witnesses/fabricated accounts." NONE.
You have failed to provide a shred of evidence to support your false claim.



Plus YOU DO NOT KNOW what people reported and neither will ANYONE know because the 911 calls were quickly confiscated and permanently sequestered.

This fact ALONE has serious implications.


It implies that you don't understand, or more precisely, are pretending not to understand the meaning of the word "permanent." Eventually, the records of those calls will be released. They will, of course, provide no support to the fantasies of conspiracy liars, but it won't matter either to the general public or the liars themselves, who will reflexively scream that the records have been altered.


So no matter how much you people keep insisting that the finite number of often inaccurately reported, always incomplete, and sometimes completely fabricated media published accounts that exist represent the entire witness pool; CIT has proven that this is patently untrue.


The fact is, your dishonest scam has dealt exclusively in cherry-picked quotes and untenable extrapolations. You proven absolutely nothing. Not a single bogus claim advanced by you can stand the slightest scrutiny.

We have noted your refusal to take your fabrications to a real news outlet. Why not peddle your snake oil to some Democrats in Congress--you know, the ones who are always screaming about impeaching Bush and Cheney? Show your nonsense to Dennis Kucinich and see what he does with it. If you tell us that he's covering up for Bush, we promise not to believe you. Bring it to the attention of John Conyers. Maybe we'll buy your explanation that he's a closet neocon when he dismisses you as a crank.
 
People who saw that the plane hit are proof that the sleight of hand worked.

People who did not see the plane hit are not valid witnesses.

Calvinball is so much fun!
 
People who saw that the plane hit are proof that the sleight of hand worked.

People who did not see the plane hit are not valid witnesses.

Calvinball is so much fun!
I love Calvinball! Especially when I get a touchdown with a man on third, and four foul shots! But only on every other Wednesday, if you say the secret phrase!
 

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