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Flight 93

The plane was shot down.

Wrong. The flight data and voice recorders would record any impact or damage. No damage was recorded but the recorders show that the pilot controlled the plane and directed it into the ground.

This is just one line of evidence and argument that shows your claim is wrong. There are others.
 
Hey. If MaGZ says the plane was shot down, the plane was shot down. What part of that don't you people understand?
 
Great Googly Moogly. Not this again.

MaGZ/femr:

You seem rather convinced that this flight was intercepted and shot down.

What kind of weapon?
From how far out?
Launched from platform?
From what squadron?
On whose authority?
Where are the recordings of the radio traffic authorizing the aircraft to open fire?
What would they sound like? How would you know?
What about the crash scene is consistent with an air-to-air intercept?
What does the typical debris field post-shootdown of an aircraft this size look like?
Would you recognize it?

And furthermore:

What makes you think you're entitled to internal NTSB/FAA/FBI documents germane to the dispersion and composition of debris scattered about the crash site?

I can JAQ too.
 
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For a brief moment, let's just toy with the fantasy of UA93 being shot down.

If a shootdown did occur, we can essentially narrow down the weapon to one of four options.

1. AIM-9 Sidewinder Short-range Heat-seeking Air to Air Missile
2. AIM-120 AMRAAM Medium-range Active-homing Air to Air Missile
3. AIM-7 Sparrow Short-range Active-homing Air to Air Missile
4. M-61 Vulcan 20mm canon

By assessing the most likely outcome of utilising each of these weapons we can conclude whether the crash pattern of UA93 is consistent.

1. AIM-9 Sidewinder
The Sidewinder is a short-range missile in widespread use by the US military, which tracks a target by identifying heat sources such as an engine exhaust. As such, an AIM-9 hit, regardless of the direction it came from, would occur near one of the aircraft's engines. The weapon has an annular-blast fragmentation warhead which is designed to cut through the skin of an aircraft, and would almost certainly result in separation of the engine from the wing. Additionally the detonation could cause rupture of the wing fuel tanks leading to destruction of the wing that was hit (otherwise a second missile would be required to destroy the other engine). A distinct characteristic of a heat-seeking impact would be impact-point debris such as engine and wing parts at a substantial distance from the rest of the wreckage. These would be "upsteam" on the flight path, and would be substantial debris fields in their own right, a long way from the main impact. Further, the loss of an engine would be clearly recorded on the FDR which would notice loss of fuel pressure and readings from one engine. Loss of a wing would result in a severe stall, and the aircraft would fall to the ground in a rapid spin which would be clearly recorded on the FDR.

2. AIM-120
3. AIM-7
Because the characteristics of these two weapons are similar, I have grouped them together. They are both active-homing missiles - the significant differences is that the AIM-7 has shorter range and a larger warhead. Both have a high-explosive warhead, which uses detonation shock to destroy the target. The active-homing missile actively tracks the radar signature of the target aircraft, and as such would be more likely to impact on the body of the aircraft. This would lead to an immediate explosive decompression of the aircraft which would have been recorded on the FDR. Aircraft hull debris at the point of impact would be found a long way upstream of the main crash site. Interior objects in the aircraft would immediately start shedding through the hull breach, leaving a long spread-out trail of small debris from the point of initial impact to the final crash site. This debris field could be expected to be enormous - potentially a hundred square kilometers or more. Depending on the specifics of impact, the aircraft would either continue to fly (requiring additional missile launches and repeats of the above) or would result in disintegration of the hull leading to a mid-air break up, characterised by a widely scattered debris field over an even larger area, particularly identified by the wide scattering of major structural components (i.e. tail, nose and wing section substantial distances apart). Of particular note, a mid-air break up would result in the FDR and CVR terminating in mid-air, not at ground level. A wing impact would result in circumstances much like the AIM-9 impact already mentioned. A specific particular point of impact could be the nose of the aircraft. On the NORAD tapes, staff are heard discussing options for bringing down an airliner (due to its size, not as easy as bringing down a small fighter) and it was suggested that firing into the nose was a good option (presumably to disable the flight deck and flight controls). In this particular instance some very distinct events could occur. Separation/destruction of the nose section would occur, leading to initial impact debris upsteam of the main crash site. This would open the entire fuselage to winds, resulting in rapid break down of the fuselage. Further, as per the case of TWA-800 which lost its nose section, the aircraft would go into a severe and rapid climb until the aircraft stalled and fell to air. Main impact could be expected to be a long way from initial impact point. FDR would terminate prior to ground impact.

4. M-61
The M-61 is a six-barrel rotary 20mm cannon which is used on almost all US military combat aircraft. The method for destroying an airliner with a 20mm cannon can be predicted based on conversations had by pilots of the 121st FS on 9/11 itself. They had only 20mm guns as weaponry - no missiles - and decided the best course of action was to attempt to remove the wing of the aircraft by aiming to shoot along the wing root.
Such an impact would have very distinct characteristics similar to the wing-removal scenario of the AIM-9, with the distinction that the engine would remain intact almost certainly until impact with the ground. Further, the ammunition used by the M-61 is either high explosive or incendiary, and would almost certainly result in detonation of the central fuel tank, which would cause instant explosive decompression of the aircraft, severe hull damage, and potentially cause it to snap in half.

In all cases, a mid-air shoot-down of UA93 would result in the distinct characteristic of leaving at least one piece of substantial structural debris (tail section, wing/s, engine/s or nose section) at a location a long way "upstream" from the final ground impact site. In all cases there would be clear indications on the FDR that an impact had occurred. (Cabin Pressure, Engine Readings, etc). In almost all cases the FDR and CVR would cease recording prior to ground impact.

On 9/11, with regards to UA93, while we can never be absolutely sure what occured inside that aircraft, we can be sure of the following:

1) No debris from UA93 was found upstream of the main impact site. All of the debris was found downstream of the impact site, with all major structural debris contained within the immediately vicinity of impact.

2) The FDR from UA93 recorded no anomalies with any aircraft system in the moments leading up to the crash. Cabin Pressure, Engine Throttle, Engine Vibration, and so forth were all normal.

3) The FDR and CVR for UA93 ended at impact with the ground.

From these three points alone, we can unequivocally conclude that UA93 was not shot down.
 
Another point:

None of these weapons, when used against a target the size and mass of an airliner, would cause a spectacular 80's action movie explosion where it instantly vaporizes into a pretty oversized ball of flame and sparks.

Even with simultaneous AAM strikes on the surface of the aircraft, breakup and descent would not occur immediately - that is to say that if this theory is to be believed, somewhere out there is a CVR tape recording the voices of two pilots whose aircraft was just shot.

I suppose that's also sitting in the Underground Cheney Vault Full Of Stuff That Proves The Truth Movement Was Right All AlongTM.
 
Even with simultaneous AAM strikes on the surface of the aircraft, breakup and descent would not occur immediately - that is to say that if this theory is to be believed, somewhere out there is a CVR tape recording the voices of two pilots whose aircraft was just shot.

Not necessarily. If we take the example of Pan Am Flight 103, the CVR ended 180 milliseconds after the explosion. TWA Flight 800's CVR and FDR stopped at the moment of the explosion, ending with a few tenths of a second of static. The FDR for KAL Flight 007 indicates the pilots were not even aware they had been hit by a missile. In any event, the pilots had been killed at this point, and it's anyone's guess how hijackers would respond to any sort of loss of control in their aircraft.
 
Not necessarily. If we take the example of Pan Am Flight 103, the CVR ended 180 milliseconds after the explosion. TWA Flight 800's CVR and FDR stopped at the moment of the explosion, ending with a few tenths of a second of static. The FDR for KAL Flight 007 indicates the pilots were not even aware they had been hit by a missile. In any event, the pilots had been killed at this point, and it's anyone's guess how hijackers would respond to any sort of loss of control in their aircraft.

Think about the kinetics of any such engagement. (Once again, wading in the Kool-aid here) How far out would it take place? If such a crazy scheme was green-lit, wouldn't this have been a close-in kill to ensure visual ID of the aircraft they were about to frag over American soil?

Yikes. We're getting off into la-la-land here. This stuff is probably a lot more fun when you don't understand how these engagements play out.

At any rate, this is all negated by the fact that we know, as per recordings and testimony of staff at NEADS, that the senior watch officer developed an intercept and nose-on attack profile, as per his job as SWO (or whatever they call it up there.) This, and any plan that required weapons free over US soil, was rejected by NMCC almost as soon as it was submitted.

And the FDR/CVR.

And the cell phone conversations.

And the debris field.

And the DNA evidence.

And.....
 
femr:

You seem rather convinced that this flight was intercepted and shot down.
Nope. I just want to clarify the location of the engine, as I indicated in my very first post. All the subsequent assumptions of others are not my problem.
 
I just want to clarify the location of the engine, as I indicated in my very first post. All the subsequent assumptions of others are not my problem.

In which case, given that this is a forum to discuss conspiracy theories concerning 9/11 and not an air accident investigation forum, it seems reasonable to ask, 'What's your point?' Either your question is relevant to some alternative interpretation of the events of 9/11, or it's off-topic for the forum. Anyway, to ask people's help with a question, then to refuse to explain why you want their help, seems a little impolite at best.

Dave
 
Nope. I just want to clarify the location of the engine, as I indicated in my very first post. All the subsequent assumptions of others are not my problem.

If you don't want people to assume, then stop being so secretive. Tell us what's on your mind. Maybe we can help.
 
Personally I think it comes back to the "you can't trust the government reports" twoof.

If you can't show exactly what was recovered and where it was recovered, then da guvmint must be lyin.

Next we will be asked to show exactly where the 95% of UA 93 is at, and how they pieced it back together.
 
Rumsfeld slip

"I think all of us have a sense if we imagine the kind of world we would face if the people who bombed the mess hall in Mosul, or the people who did the bombing in Spain, or the people who attacked the United States in New York, shot down the plane over Pennsylvania and attacked the Pentagon, the people who cut off peoples' heads on television to intimidate, to frighten – indeed the word 'terrorized' is just that. Its purpose is to terrorize, to alter behavior, to make people be something other than that which they want to be." - Donald Rumsfeld

I'm sure Rumsfeld ment to say "crashed the plane over Pennsylvania"

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42112
 
I'm sure when you speak extemporaneously, you impeccably nail every single adage and never mince words.

If there were the slightest shred of evidence to go along with Rumsfeld's faux-pas, I'd say you might be on to something.

By the way, that quote's been used so much in the past it's really beginning to go stale.
 
General Eberhart's slip

GEN. RALPH EBERHART: Sir, our modeling, which we've shared with the staff, reflects that giving the situation you've outlined, which we think is the situation that exists today because of the fixes, the remedies put in place, we would be able to shoot down all three aircraft -- all four aircraft.

I appears General Eberhart made the same mistake as Donald Rumsfeld.
I wonder if they know something we don't?

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/terrorism/jan-june04/day_06-17.html
 
GEN. RALPH EBERHART: Sir, our modeling, which we've shared with the staff, reflects that giving the situation you've outlined, which we think is the situation that exists today because of the fixes, the remedies put in place, we would be able to shoot down all three aircraft -- all four aircraft.

I appears General Eberhart made the same mistake as Donald Rumsfeld.
I wonder if they know something we don't?

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/terrorism/jan-june04/day_06-17.html

*sigh* Why don't you ask them?

By the way, do you have the name of the heroic pilot for us, yet?
 
"I think all of us have a sense if we imagine the kind of world we would face if the people who bombed the mess hall in Mosul, or the people who did the bombing in Spain, or the people who attacked the United States in New York, shot down the plane over Pennsylvania and attacked the Pentagon, the people who cut off peoples' heads on television to intimidate, to frighten – indeed the word 'terrorized' is just that. Its purpose is to terrorize, to alter behavior, to make people be something other than that which they want to be." - Donald Rumsfeld

I'm sure Rumsfeld ment to say "crashed the plane over Pennsylvania"

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42112

I see 2 problems with that:

1: The Jet fighters were going East into the N. Atlantic Ocean & were many miles away.

2: The John P. Murtha Airport, located 20 miles North of Shanksville, PA only has Apache (Attack) Helicopters & no Jet fighters.

As for me hearing another jet after Flight 93 flew over, I never heard another jet flying behind Flt. 93.

Further evidence to prove my point:

http://www.flyjohnstownairport.com/about/military-fact-sheet.htm

The 1-104 Attack Reconnaissance Battalion (ARB) employs 27 Active Duty Guard Soldiers, 337 traditional Guard Soldiers and has 16 Apache helicopters stationed in Johnstown. The Army Aviation Support Facility (AASF) employs 111 full time Federal Technicians to support military aviation operations.
 
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According to the Truth Movement, Flight 93 was "shot down" by a "jet fighter". That theory is just rediculas because I live no more than 20 miles North of Shanksville, PA. The John P. Murtha Airport, which is located at Johnstown, PA, only has Apache Helicopters & no jet fighters. When I woke up that September morning I only heard a large low flying commercial jet and I didn't hear anything after that, if indeed there was a jet fighter I would've heard it flying low too. In my mind I thought it was a plane going to land at the airport cause I lived near the airport at that time. Then I heard on the local news that a plane had crashed in Shanksville.

Also another silly theory that's going around is that they planted plane parts in 1994 & that a hole aleady existed there. At the time in 1994, the place where Flight 93 crashed on 9/11/2001, it was an abandoned strip mine. Filled with ditches where the excavators dug when the strip mine was still open. So to say that a hole existed & that they planted parts in 1994 is rediculas.

Truthers can say all kinds of things about Flight 93, but they never really lived near Shanksville on 9/11.

And if any Truther wishes to challenge me they can do so, only if they have enough evidence to counter my statement.
flight 93 didn't exist
 

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