Flight 77 Animation

[celestrin]

apathoid wrote:
Is it possible to get the ATIS info from DCA that morning...?

I only have this weather data.
ww.wunderground.com/history/airport/DCA/2001/9/11/DailyHistory.html

The site says that at 9:41AM EDT the sea level pressure was apparently 30.22 in/1023.2 hPa.

On the other note, I got this link recently on some other board.
ww.stthomas.edu/aquin/archive/041202/anaconda.html

The article in a student(?) paper quotes an AWACS pilot Lt. Anthony Kuczynski, saying that he got orders to shoot down a plane on 9/11. It also writes that his team was just about to intercept UA93 when it crashed. Does anyone have more background detail on this story? I can't find any. To me it looks like a potencial CT quote mine. CTs have already mined it for "proof" that UA93 was indeed shot down, now it seems at odds with the recent Vanity Fair article. How was he "just about to intercept UA93", when supposedly noone knew about it until after it crashed? I don't have a clue about US airdefence systems. Well, apart from what I've picked up at great forums such as this one. How does AWACS fit into airdefence? Does NEADS get its radar data? Does NORAD?

 

[Cylinder]

The article in a student(?) paper quotes an AWACS pilot Lt. Anthony Kuczynski, saying that he got orders to shoot down a plane on 9/11.

There is no evidence that any AWACS was in anyway involved in the events of 9/11. I'll research the claim a bit, but you can be certain that an AWACS on station would have made it into the Commission narrative.

It also writes that his team was just about to intercept UA93 when it crashed. Does anyone have more background detail on this story? I can't find any. To me it looks like a potencial CT quote mine. CTs have already mined it for "proof" that UA93 was indeed shot down, now it seems at odds with the recent Vanity Fair article. How was he "just about to intercept UA93", when supposedly noone knew about it until after it crashed?

Right - FAA did not notify NORAD of UA93 until after it had crashed,

I don't have a clue about US airdefence systems. Well, apart from what I've picked up at great forums such as this one. How does AWACS fit into airdefence?

AWACS = Airborne Warning and Control System

Here's the Wiki. It's like an airport's control tower placed on steroids and packed into a Boeing 707. It's used to monitor and control air defense wherever it's deployed. It has the ability to assign targets to air interceptors and even remotely vector (turn) aircraft to a target area.

Does NEADS get its radar data? Does NORAD?

It could have, but none were used on 9/11. NEADS used ground control radar and information supplied to it by FAA HQ, the various FAA Control Centers and the airlines' operations centers that morning.

 

[gumboot]

There is no evidence that any AWACS was in anyway involved in the events of 9/11. I'll research the claim a bit, but you can be certain that an AWACS on station would have made it into the Commission narrative.

Who would have authority to "scramble" an AWACS?

I know, for example, that fighters out of Andrews scrambled and established a CAP of DC totally independent from NORAD - I believe the Secret Service made the request. In addition, the Secret Service gave them permission to shoot down any aircraft that were a threat.

This, particularly. I found interesting. What is the Secret Service's jurisdiction in a situation like this?

-Andrew

 

[Cylinder]

Who would have authority to "scramble" an AWACS?

It would fall through the normal chain - DO, Wing, Command, Chief of Staff, etc... I do not know that NORAD (1st Air Force Command) had any assigned pre-911, but you would think there were. Probably you will find that they were there on paper, but had been long since taken off alert status.

I know, for example, that fighters out of Andrews scrambled and established a CAP of DC totally independent from NORAD - I believe the Secret Service made the request. In addition, the Secret Service gave them permission to shoot down any aircraft that were a threat.

This, particularly. I found interesting. What is the Secret Service's jurisdiction in a situation like this?

Interesting enough, the USSS have aircraft placed under its control for defense of the White House and Capitol. I'm sure the USSS detail has an Air Liason Officer assigned to the White House for that situation (or they may rely on the regular Air Force aide assigned to the White House Operations Center.)

ETA: When you get a command, be sure to make freinds with your ALO. He or she is one of those people to get into good graces with. Our GLO (Ground Liason Officer) was across the hall and we always popped in to say hello. It's a thankless job really - until the Shi'ie (or Sunni, for that matter) hits the fan.

 

[Jocce]

Ok, just analyzed the FDR plot for AA77 for the last half hour or so.

http://www.911myths.com/AAL77_fdr.pdf

Couple of interesting things stood out.
First, the baro selectors were set to 30.20 for departure and then 29.92 after 18,000' as you might expect. However, sometime after the takeover and after initiating an autopilot descent, the #1 baro knob was set to around 30.25(somewhere between 30.20 and 30.30) descending through 15,000'.

Well, been a few days since this topic was current but the FDR data now seems to be one hot smoking gun over at LC land so I'd like to hear if someone has an idea about the cause for this apparent anomaly.

First, pressure altitude always means the same thing. It's altitude above the plane where air pressure is 29.92 inHg. This means that the BARO COR in the FDR data doesn't affect the recorded pressure altitude.

Assuming that pentagon was experiencing 30.22 on this particular moment actually means that AA77 was some 480 feet above sea level approximately when it passed the highway and ran into lightpoles.

The only explanation I can come up with is that someone has been messing with the FDR data I found on the webb. Anyone else have some ideas?

 

[CFLarsen]

"The Pentagon Straight Ahead: Why start this turn? Why not push the nose straight down into the Pentagon?"
Implied Answer: He was incompetent.
Reasonable Answer: He knew what his objective was, and hitting the Pentagon at the angle that maneuvering the plan in that fashion would not achieve that objective.

If he could hit it at all.

This turn was started for the very same reason the two planes that hit the Twin Towers didn't come flying down from high skies: If you want to hit a target using a plane, you try to go as low as you possibly can. This way, you have less to worry about over/under"shooting" the target. The plane is also far more stable.

This is so idiotic. Do the CT'ers really think this idiocy is convincing?

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Well, been a few days since this topic was current but the FDR data now seems to be one hot smoking gun over at LC land so I'd like to hear if someone has an idea about the cause for this apparent anomaly.

First, pressure altitude always means the same thing. It's altitude above the plane where air pressure is 29.92 inHg. This means that the BARO COR in the FDR data doesn't affect the recorded pressure altitude.

Assuming that pentagon was experiencing 30.22 on this particular moment actually means that AA77 was some 480 feet above sea level approximately when it passed the highway and ran into lightpoles.

The only explanation I can come up with is that someone has been messing with the FDR data I found on the webb. Anyone else have some ideas?

No the data is fine the Idiots on loose change do not know about Density Altitude!
http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_da.htm

Example: at 5050 feet altitude, 95 deg F air temp, 29.45 inches-Hg altimeter setting and a dew point of 67 deg F, the Density Altitude is calculated as 9252 feet.

When reset to the standard atmosphere the Altimeter in the 757 displays both the Density Altitude, and the true Altitude, to help the pilots save fuel.

The altimeter is supposed to be reset before it leaves the 18000ft cruising mark.

If it is not it can be off.
Remember we are talking about a computer here not a simple Gage.

The pilots are supposed to inter the flight and weather data as it is transmitted by the ground stations.
I do not think the terrorist did that.

 

[Jocce]

Density altitude has nothing to do with it. The FDR data lists pressure altitude and nothing else, this is what makes me wonder about the data.

 

[Brainache]

This is so idiotic. Do the CT'ers really think this idiocy is convincing?

You think that is idiotic? Have a look at this lot:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12165

 

[CFLarsen]

You think that is idiotic? Have a look at this lot:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12165

To fully find the responsibles, you'd have to incarcerate half of the CIA, the FBI, the NRO, the NSA, the government, the huge anonymous corporations, the media, and so on...

All keeping mum, of course.

No, I'm not surprised at all.

 

[WildCat]

The funny thing is that JDX is using the FDR to "prove" that Flight 77 didn't hit the Pentagon. The same FDR that was found... in the wreckage of the Pentagon. The mind boggles at the stupidity.

 

[CFLarsen]

The funny thing is that JDX is using the FDR to "prove" that Flight 77 didn't hit the Pentagon. The same FDR that was found... in the wreckage of the Pentagon. The mind boggles at the stupidity.

It was planted there!

Who are you working for, de gubmint? Yeah, you're in this, too.....

 

[Brainache]

The funny thing is that JDX is using the FDR to "prove" that Flight 77 didn't hit the Pentagon. The same FDR that was found... in the wreckage of the Pentagon. The mind boggles at the stupidity.

You know what? I am ashamed of myself that that didn't occur to me.

Maybe he is saying that the FDR wasn't found at the pentagon and that all the data is just made up. JDX of course such a genius that only he can spot the tiny flaw in their evil plan.
Forget the fact that the evil gubmint went to all the trouble of faking all the data when they could just have said it was destroyed. So they recreate this impossible(according to JDX) flight path and then get the altitude wrong.

 

[apathoid]

First, pressure altitude always means the same thing. It's altitude above the plane where air pressure is 29.92 inHg. This means that the BARO COR in the FDR data doesn't affect the recorded pressure altitude.

Assuming that pentagon was experiencing 30.22 on this particular moment actually means that AA77 was some 480 feet above sea level approximately when it passed the highway and ran into lightpoles.

The only explanation I can come up with is that someone has been messing with the FDR data I found on the webb. Anyone else have some ideas?

I agree, this looks really bad. But, I am wondering if the altimeter in johndoexs simulation is actually the altimeter data(read from the Air Data Computers) and not the FDR pressure altitude data. Might this be the reason the altitude read 180' and not 480' ?

I was wondering how you came up with 480', however. I tried a pressure altitude calculator here:
http://www.hqjmtc.army.mil/weather/stnpresspa.html

..and plugged in 30.22, 65 ft elevation(37' Google Earth elevation plus the 30' lightpole) and I get (NEG)218 ft !

What the....?

 

[MRC_Hans]

About fuel management: An F16 has an ejector seat (obviously). If a sufficiently severe threat is to be intercepted, you simply won't worry about fuel for that home run.

As for the simulation video (which I just saw right now as it wouldn't play the first time I visited the thread), I agree that the reconstruction is awesome and the comments are from somebody talking through his hat.

"The Pentagon Straight Ahead: Why start this turn? Why not push the nose straight down into the Pentagon?"

Because the dive would have ripped his wings off. This is not a dive bomber. He evidently flies along not entirely sure of his position, although his course is dead on. This is typical of setting a gps course and watching visually for his target. Suddenly he spots it right under his nose.

"This pilot doesn't seem concerned about intercept.. ???"

I assume he is more concerned about flying towards what he must be imagining as his personal gate to Heaven. However, he has no choice but to go around to bleed off altitude, so his concerns don't matter.

"wow... no F-16's? No F-15's? The WTC has just been hit! Where are our defenses?"

As we now know they were racing to the scene, but I don't expect that ordinary defence readyness included bogies turning up deep in US territory before 9/11.

"For someone who was refused to rent a 172 because he couldn't control it... He sure is doing a pretty good job in this 757 without having any training in type."

Not really. OK, he delivers the goods, but that is one bumpy ride. I wouldnt let him fly my plane if his turns were that wavey.

"Still not a worry in the world of being intercepted. Hmmm...."

For all we know he was anxiously scanning the skies. That would account for some of those jerky stick movements.

"Anyone have a book to read while this maneuver is completed? Where is the intercept?!?!?!?!?!?"

Nice thing to do during the last minutes of your life. I have news for you, Mr. commentator: This is about steep as you CAN whip around an airliner, if you don't want to shed a couple of wings.

"Cue the Top Gun Music[.] Watch this incredible control and precision. Keep an eye on the yoke."

Ehr, more bumpy riding, but not a bad job hitting such a relatively low target. Not quite top-gun material, though. Note that this time he dips the nose.

"The recording stops here. At 180 Pressure Altitude above the light poles. The actual altitude of this aircraft is 480 feet. Too high to hit the light poles"

Mmmm, however, since we observe that the light poles were indeed hit, then we must assume that he was somehow low enough to do just that. This is one of the stupidities of these CTers: They just grab at whatever straw to make things look suspicious. He just implied that the plane was flown by an experienced pilot who knew that interception would be held back. Apart form the obvious question as to just who this pilot is supposed to have been, what is with the lamp posts? Does he imply:

- That they were toppled sometime later to support the notion that the plane had hit the pentagon? (as if the hole in the wall, the fire and the heaps of airplane parts were not ample evidence).

- That they were rigged in advance because the to be suicide pilot told them during the briefing "OK, I can take out the Pentagon, but those lamp posts are a bit of a tall order".

- That they had nothing to do with the attack but were knocked down by a drunken driver the previous night and only noticed after the attack?



Hans

 

[apathoid]

OK, I just fired up MSFS and played with the baro/pressure settings and here is what I got.

At DCA, with the ambient pressure set to 30.22 in the weather setup, and the baro knob set at 29.92 - I got a (NEG) 280' indication on the altimeter. When I took off and commenced with some treetop flying, I got indications of around (NEG) 240'. Is this pressure altitude? If so, Jonnys animation must be looking at either RADALT data or ADC data and not pressure altitude..

Next time I do an Air Data/Pitot Static checkout on an airplane, I am going to try this and hopefully driving the altimeter to a negative wont damage the gauge!

 

[kevin]

I don't think the hijackers would consider an intercept a failure. Forcing a military to shoot down a plane of it's own citizens would still be considered a success.

The goal was not the pentagon or the wtc it was the fear. The only situation that is really a failure for them is something like Flight 93 where those that should be most in fear overcome that to fight back.

 

[Jocce]

Anyone want the full FDR csv-file, it's at http://www.hostfiles.org/download.php?id=EC33C56C.

An even more peculiar thing then strange alt readings is probably that the planes location the last second is recorded as N38°52' W077°25'. Kinda weird since that is some 20 miles west of Washington. Then again, I'm not sure where this file originated, who uploaded it or if it is unaltered.

ETA:
Calculating density altitude from the data in FDR and weather data from http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KDCA/2001/9/11/DailyHistory.html

Alt: 173
Altimeter setting: 29.92
Temp: 73
Dew point: 57

Gives Density altitude: 1324 feet

 

[R.Mackey]

Anyone want the full FDR csv-file, it's at http://www.hostfiles.org/download.php?id=EC33C56C.

An even more peculiar thing then strange alt readings is probably that the planes location the last second is recorded as N38°52' W077°25'. Kinda weird since that is some 20 miles west of Washington. Then again, I'm not sure where this file originated, who uploaded it or if it is unaltered.

Also possible that the FDR was arrested in the middle of a write operation. You need to be very careful about the last record of any tape device that suffers a power failure. Some denoising of the data or rejection of outliers would seem to be in order.

Kinda like those yahoos who take funny images caused when weather radar gets thrashed around by high winds, and claim it's evidence of weather machines...

 

[Jocce]

Well, actually the alt and pos change over time in the file are consistent and this last record doesn't show any deviation from the trend. That's why I'm doubting the autenticity (SP) of the file since neither location nor altitude seems to match the vast amount of other evidence there is.

ETA: There might be some explanation in the appendixes to the report but I haven't been able to locate those.