Merged Fireballs and Backdraft in WTC1 Basement and Lobby

[BigAl]

In future I would prefer if you do not change words that are written under my name. That is common forgery. Feel free to highlight words to make a point if you must but no more forgery please..

You quote fraudulent text from the "Half Truth Movement" on a regular basis. How do you think the people who's words were stolen, feel, many of them NY Firemen?

 

[aggle-rithm]

yes - strangely the doors of 6,7 were blown out only to one side. The cars could be entered from two entrances.

somebody mentioned the pressure from the explosion forcing the theoretical fireball down the elevator shaft. But what about when the explosion was over a milisecond later and it sucked air back in to replace what had been burned ?ouldn't it suck the fireball back up the elevator shaft ?

Highly plausible, Bill. The shafts are a two way street.

bio, bill, KreeL...

Please answer a question for me.

Can you tell us what you believe happened on 9/11, in terms of who, how, what, and why?

I'm not asking for what DID happen, only what you BELIEVE happened.

This should be very, very simple. Anyone who believes 9/11 was perpetrated by Middle Eastern terrorists has no problem with this. But for some reason truthers, who are always saying that their version of events make so much more sense, are completely unable to articulate their version of events.

So, can you do it? Yes or no?

 

[bill smith]

If a fireball enters a shaft where there is up as well as down then the fireball will always go up. So in the fireball argument we are always talking about liquid fuel falling down he shaft before igniting. Does nybody think differently ?

 

[jhunter1163]

Dibs on the Stundie.

"Where there is up"? Where on Earth isn't there up?

 

[BigAl]

If a fireball enters a shaft where there is up as well as down then the fireball will always go up. So in the fireball argument we are always talking about liquid fuel falling down he shaft before igniting. Does nybody think differently ?

Yes, everyone familiar with fire forensics. Here's two, below.

Who can you find to defend your free-floating unhinged conjecture????

Please insert name here: _______________________

What is your point, Bill? Did no airplanes hit towers? Was there not thousands of gallons of fuel dumped into the towers?

Glenn Corbett, professor of fire science at John Jay College of
Criminal Justice says that fire and damage caused all collapse at WTC.
relevant expertise. John Jay is part of the City University of New
York, emphasizing criminal justice and fire science.
http://www.jjay.cuny.edu/

http://audio.wnyc.org/bl/bl091407e.mp3
(Colbert starts 5 minutes into the audio)

Corbett trains NY firemen and is involved with setting fire
codes. It's his job to understand what happened so as to teach firemen
how to stay alive and to make buildings safe.
​

And

Prof. Jonathan Barnett, Fire protection engineer
Professor Jonathan R. Barnett, Ph.D.
Center For Firesafety Studies
Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Worcester, Massachusetts, USA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWpOfUMz6SE (WTC5 WTC7 40 seconds.)
http://www.asce.org/pdf/bio_jbarnett.pdf
​

(I always get the feeling that people like Bill put me on ignore.)

 

[tfk]

Did elevators fall in the shafts that are suspected of carrying fuel to the lobby level?

IF they did, then they would pneumatically DRAW the fuel down behind them.

When the jets hit, thousands of gallons of fuel were spread all around those floors. All of this fuel did NOT explode in the fireball. It was protected by its speed and by physical isolation from the fireball.

Typically the shafts are relatively closed pneumatic tubes. The airplane debris opened these tubes at the impact floors. Now a comparatively huge (i.e., low flow resistance) opening, compared to the cracks around elevator doors, would have drawn LOTS of air (fuel laden air) down to the lowest levels behind the elevators themselves.

I have not looked into this issue at all. I am assured by the fact that dozens of people reported the smell of jet fuel in the lobby. It got to the lobby somehow.

Regarding the suggestion that, if the elevators blew on only one side of the elevator, that means that the explosion was external: This is utter nonsense. The DIRECTION that the doors were blown determines whether the explosion was internal or external.

The extensive damage to the lobby can easily be explained by the physical stresses due to the impact of the plane. Other than at the impact floors themselves, the highest stresses resulting from the impacts will be at the ground floor level.

tom

 

[alexi_drago]

I'm not sure if you can just apply some common sense and what you think happened or would or should have happened unless you have actually studied and worked with the behaviour of fire and fuel explosions in confined spaces and through structures. I don't know if there's any fire investigators or similar here but I'd take no one's ideas for what they think happened seriously unless they have experience in that field. Even then I doubt there's many who have experience of large amounts of fuel flowing through a multi-story building.

 

[bio]

Easy.

Fuel deflagrations aren't high explosives.

You've made up your own strawman.

Walls are made of drywall and/or had marble panels in the lower areas.

Elavator cars are steel framed and skinned.

You're stupid.

These destructions result, according to you, from the explosive material in the airplane. In Basement 4 there were:

- "all of the ceiling tiles was falling down",
- "the light fixtures were falling swinging out of the ceiling,
- "The walls were caving in"

additionally we have a witness account of Edward McCabe, building engineer:

"I was in the refrigeration plant in tower 1 sub basement 4. I was passing through when I felt a slight shifting of the building. I froze right where I stood and listened....nothing.. about 30 seconds past and to my left about 30 feet from me was a stairway leading up to a door. this door explodes off its hinges and white smoke came into the plant. (...)"

The refrigeration plant was outside the tower's foundation and adjacent to it on the south-side (B5 foundation floorplan, it gives also the exact location of the plant for B4). For the door to be exploded off its hinges the blast had to destroy at least three walls before.

..... but these forces could not destroy the car 6, 7 because the cars "are steel framed and skinned" according to Seymour Butz?

I reject this explanation because, we have witness accounts of survivors of the heavily damaged freight elevator 50.

ARTURO GRIFFITH, WTC SURVIVOR:

KING: Where were you when it happened?

A. GRIFFITH: Well, I was on my way from B-2 to 49th floor. And as I took off, it was amount it was a matter of seconds -- five, six, seven seconds, I don't know. And there was a loud explosion and the elevator dropped.And when the elevator dropped there was a lot of debris and cables falling on top of the elevator. And I just -- I just put my hand over my head and I said, oh God I'm going to die. But I didn't know what was happening.

When the elevator finally stopped, they had an explosion that bring the doors inside the elevator, and I think I'm sure that that was what broke my leg. And then they had another explosion and the panel that threw me, you know, against the wall, nd I guess I was unconscious for a couple of minutes because somebody else was in the elevator with me, and they say that they was trying to get my attention and they didn't get no response from me. (CNN Transcript)

Why these forces could "only" bring the doors inside the elevator, could not cause more harm? No my friend "debunker".

The blast pressure had to go right through the elevator used by Grififth and Cruz. And they certainly wouldn't have survived it when the pressure from the fireball / explosive material traveling through the shaft of Car 50 would be the same force that - as we saw - caused walls to cave-in, blew out massive windows, threw people against walls, blew someone’s tongue out of their mouth.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Can you tell us what you believe happened on 9/11, in terms of who, how, what, and why?

I'm not asking for what DID happen, only what you BELIEVE happened.

So, can you do it? Yes or no?

Clearly, the answer is "no".

You avoid dealing with the central issue in this debate and cling desperately to arguments surrounding peripheral issues like how much the steel supports weighed or how jet fuel would react when spilled in large quanities down an elevator shaft.

You're going nowhere. Good luck with that.

 

[BigAl]

These destructions result, according to you, from the explosive material in the airplane. In Basement 4 there were:

- "all of the ceiling tiles was falling down",
- "the light fixtures were falling swinging out of the ceiling,
- "The walls were caving in"

additionally we have a witness account of Edward McCabe, building engineer:

"I was in the refrigeration plant in tower 1 sub basement 4. I was passing through when I felt a slight shifting of the building. I froze right where I stood and listened....nothing.. about 30 seconds past and to my left about 30 feet from me was a stairway leading up to a door. this door explodes off its hinges and white smoke came into the plant. (...)"

The refrigeration plant was outside the tower's foundation and adjacent to it on the south-side (B5 foundation floorplan, it gives also the exact location of the plant for B4). For the door to be exploded off its hinges the blast had to destroy at least three walls before.

..... but these forces could not destroy the car 6, 7 because the cars "are steel framed and skinned" according to Seymour Butz?

I reject this explanation because, we have witness accounts of survivors of the heavily damaged freight elevator 50.

ARTURO GRIFFITH, WTC SURVIVOR:

KING: Where were you when it happened?

A. GRIFFITH: Well, I was on my way from B-2 to 49th floor. And as I took off, it was amount it was a matter of seconds -- five, six, seven seconds, I don't know. And there was a loud explosion and the elevator dropped.And when the elevator dropped there was a lot of debris and cables falling on top of the elevator. And I just -- I just put my hand over my head and I said, oh God I'm going to die. But I didn't know what was happening.

When the elevator finally stopped, they had an explosion that bring the doors inside the elevator, and I think I'm sure that that was what broke my leg. And then they had another explosion and the panel that threw me, you know, against the wall, nd I guess I was unconscious for a couple of minutes because somebody else was in the elevator with me, and they say that they was trying to get my attention and they didn't get no response from me. (CNN Transcript)

Why these forces could "only" bring the doors inside the elevator, could not cause more harm? No my friend "debunker".

The blast pressure had to go right through the elevator used by Grififth and Cruz. And they certainly wouldn't have survived it when the pressure from the fireball / explosive material traveling through the shaft of Car 50 would be the same force that - as we saw - caused walls to cave-in, blew out massive windows, threw people against walls, blew someone’s tongue out of their mouth.

I wouldn't bet a nickle that those quotes are accurate and complete, especially since they are mostly unsourced quotes from the "Half Truth Movement".

Even to the degree the clips are accurate, nothing they say is inconsistent with the gas explosions in these video clips of real-world events.

Paint store explosion
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2178600570591048350
Backdraft explosion #1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1_u-eAq5QU
Backdraft explosion #2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkNCqrJiXsU
Fire Dept practice mistake
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3326847714607168493​

 

[leftysergeant]

The blast pressure had to go right through the elevator used by Grififth and Cruz. And they certainly wouldn't have survived it when the pressure from the fireball / explosive material traveling through the shaft of Car 50 would be the same force that - as we saw - caused walls to cave-in, blew out massive windows, threw people against walls, blew someone’s tongue out of their mouth.

This is an absurd statement. The blast did not, by any stretch of the imagination, have to pass through the elevator car. The fuel was in the shaft around the car, not in it. The typical frieght elevator is a little more robustly built than are semi-permanent plasterboard walls such as would divide shop areas in the basement. A general over-pressurization of the area can easily knock out drywall. It takes far less pressure to move drywall than to crush an elevator car.

You still have no accounts of areas in which people weresmahed to a red pulp or torn to pieces. Ergo, you have no high explosive event.

 

[bio]

This is an absurd statement. The blast did not, by any stretch of the imagination, have to pass through the elevator car. The fuel was in the shaft around the car, not in it. The typical frieght elevator is a little more robustly built than are semi-permanent plasterboard walls such as would divide shop areas in the basement. A general over-pressurization of the area can easily knock out drywall. It takes far less pressure to move drywall than to crush an elevator car.

You still have no accounts of areas in which people weresmahed to a red pulp or torn to pieces. Ergo, you have no high explosive event.

At Basement 4 Edward McCabe, building engineer, felt a slight shifting of the building, and we have not evidences of "explosive events". In this moment, Mc Cabe was even outside the tower's foundation. Come on. Why do you not reject the witness-account like BigAl?

 

[BigAl]

At Basement 4 Edward McCabe, building engineer, felt a slight shifting of the building, and we have not evidences of "explosive events". In this moment, Mc Cabe was even outside the tower's foundation. Come on. Why do you not reject the witness-account like BigAl?

Ummm, maybe the fact that he was in a building that had just been hit by a 140 ton aircraft had something to do with it.

 

[jhunter1163]

- "all of the ceiling tiles was falling down",

I thought the ceiling tiles were explosives?

 

[BigAl]

These destructions result, according to you, from the explosive material in the airplane. In Basement 4 there were:

- "all of the ceiling tiles was falling down"
- "the light fixtures were falling swinging out of the ceiling,

Hyperbole strikes again.

Does bio have any idea just how insignificant and easy it is to dislodge a ceiling tile?

Lighting fixtures in hung-ceiling buildings are little better.

This is more not-grown-up-no-real-world-experience from the "Truth Movement".

 

[aggle-rithm]

I thought the ceiling tiles were explosives?

That's the beauty of being a truther. Internal consistency is not required.

 

[bio]

At Basement 4 Edward McCabe, building engineer, felt a slight shifting of the building, and we have not evidences of "explosive events". In this moment, Mc Cabe was even outside the tower's foundation. Come on. Why do you not reject the witness-account like BigAl?

Ummm, maybe the fact that he was in a building that had just been hit by a 140 ton aircraft had something to do with it.

Do you mean, that the shifting of the foundation comes from the plane impact? According to NIST, the plane impact was about the half the towers experienced in strong wind storms (see source down).

If the shifting of the foundation was caused by the plane impact, we would expect this to have happened over a longer period - as long as the duration of the heavy wind.

Sorry - I reject your idea. Please provide evidence, that during heavy wind, the foundation of the tower was shifting. Thank you. As long, as you cannot provide evidence, I see the shifting as a result of the explosions, which are reported by numerous witness accounts.

NIST:
The maximum deflection at the top of the tower was estimated to be more than 1/3 of the drift resulting from original design wind loads (about 45 inch in the N-S direction). Since the lateral stiffness of the building before and after impact was essentially the same, it can be concluded that the additional stresses in the columns due to this oscillation were roughly 1/3 of the column stresses resulting from the original design wind loads. The building demonstrated an ability to carry this additional load and therefore, still had reserve capacity.

 

[BigAl]

At Basement 4 Edward McCabe, building engineer, felt a slight shifting of the building, and we have not evidences of "explosive events". In this moment, Mc Cabe was even outside the tower's foundation. Come on. Why do you not reject the witness-account like BigAl?

That is not a direct McCabe quote and we have no idea what McCabe saw and said. The usual search tools com up dry on a source for "Edward McCabe" or "McCabe engineer".

I don't think he exists.

Prove me wrong.

 

[BigAl]

At Basement 4 Edward McCabe, building engineer, felt a slight shifting of the building, and we have not evidences of "explosive events". In this moment, Mc Cabe was even outside the tower's foundation. Come on. Why do you not reject the witness-account like BigAl?



Do you mean, that the shifting of the foundation comes from the plane impact? According to NIST, the plane impact was about the half the towers experienced in strong wind storms (see source down).

Until we have McCabe's full statement, we don't know what he saw and said. What is above isn't even a cherry-picked quote. It;s a couple unsourced words.

People in the basement would have felt the impact sooner (because the shock wave passes down the steel much faster than the sound travels in air) and differently due to the physics of transmission of shock to a fixed infinite object, the Earth.

 

[Norseman]

At Basement 4 Edward McCabe, building engineer, felt a slight shifting of the building, and we have not evidences of "explosive events". In this moment, Mc Cabe was even outside the tower's foundation. Come on. Why do you not reject the witness-account like BigAl?



Do you mean, that the shifting of the foundation comes from the plane impact? According to NIST, the plane impact was about the half the towers experienced in strong wind storms (see source down).

If the shifting of the foundation was caused by the plane impact, we would expect this to have happened over a longer period - as long as the duration of the heavy wind.

Sorry - I reject your idea. Please provide evidence, that during heavy wind, the foundation of the tower was shifting. Thank you. As long, as you cannot provide evidence, I see the shifting as a result of the explosions, which are reported by numerous witness accounts.

NIST:
The maximum deflection at the top of the tower was estimated to be more than 1/3 of the drift resulting from original design wind loads (about 45 inch in the N-S direction). Since the lateral stiffness of the building before and after impact was essentially the same, it can be concluded that the additional stresses in the columns due to this oscillation were roughly 1/3 of the column stresses resulting from the original design wind loads. The building demonstrated an ability to carry this additional load and therefore, still had reserve capacity.

Regarding the experience of Edward McCabe the interested reader should take look at post 725 in this thread for a complete context and sourced quotes.

Bio do you understand the difference between a sustained wind loading and the sudden impact of Flight 11? The later delivering the energy equivalent of about 600 kg of TNT within the fraction a second. Judging by the level of destruction up in the impact zone, that can certainly be considered an "explosive event".

Could you please post the design wind speed for the two towers Bio and the correct equivalent on the Beaufort scale? Your post is bit misleading on this Bio.