Fire, steel, and 911.

[rwguinn]

[derail] I was at the DMV today and plastered all over the place were signs saying that they take checks and money orders, but not cash. What happened to "legal tender for all debts, public and private"? And this is a government agency! Isn't it illegal to refuse cash as a form of payment?

[/derail]



Actually, yes, it does. It's called "modeling", and it's used all the time in science. It reminds me a bit of what goes on in a crime lab.

You may as well be equally amazed that we can look through a spectroscope here on earth and determine what a star is made of.




I disagree. I consider myself a layman, and I saw all sorts of errors in his missive, even before others pointed them out.

But it's amazing how many people think "Modeling" means actually building a physical replica. It's even more amazing how many people think that physical conformity is all that is important--see "spooked"
It's enough to make bald men tear out their hair...

 

[CurtC]

[derail] I was at the DMV today and plastered all over the place were signs saying that they take checks and money orders, but not cash. What happened to "legal tender for all debts, public and private"? And this is a government agency! Isn't it illegal to refuse cash as a form of payment?
[/derail]

No, it's not. Wikipedia says:

There being no other federal law prohibiting private businesses, persons or organizations from specifying other methods of payment they choose to accept or refuse, such entitites therefore are free to insist on payment by credit card, for example, or to refuse larger denomination banknotes. Some small stores in the United States have a policy of not accepting large notes, typically above $20, either at all or at certain times of day; this allows them to keep fairly small quantities of money in the register and deter robbery, and also serves to limit one's risk of accepting counterfeit notes.

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

"The structure below the level of collapse initiation offered minimal resistance to the falling building mass .... The potential energy released by the downward movement of the large building mass far exceeded the capacity of the intact structure below to absorb that .... Since the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little resistance to the tremendous energy released by the falling building mass, the building section above came down essentially in free fall .... As the stories below sequentially failed, the falling mass increased, further increasing the demand on the floors below, which were unable to arrest the moving mass." NIST's Final Report

Okay, so according to this theory...once the fire had damaged the structure enough to initiate the collapse...at this point - the falling mass and potential energy it released onto the lowers floors is ultimately what caused the pulverization of the building. I think we can all agree, that without the falling mass (upper floors) above the impact point....the lower floors obviously would NOT have just crumbled to the ground, since there would have been a clear absence of the energy it would have taken to power such an event. So again - NIST's theory is that this falling building mass (upper floors above the impact) smashed down upon the lower floors causing them to pulverize into dust. The problem we have with this theory, is that we lose sight of the entire building about half way through the collapse due to the enormous cloud of dust that engulfs each tower during it's downward descent. So, how can NIST even be all that certain, that the upper mass remained intact during the entire collapse? They can't...and it's just another critical point that is left up to complete speculation. I, for one - will at least present this video, which shows the collapse of WTC 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u_k217RkUo

In this clip, you can clearly see that the critical upper mass of WTC 2 begins to fall over and to the side, just shortly after the collapse begins. A simple lesson in one of the fundamental laws of physics i.e. inertia - states that...A body moving on a level surface will continue in the same direction at a constant speed unless disturbed. So, following...SCIENTIFIC law, the upper mass will not and cannot move itself back to it's original position i.e. directly above the lower floors. (that is - barring an attempt by superman to swoop in and push it back over there) So, what does this tell us? Well, a lot. Since the scientifically measurable force created by the sine qua non (upper floor mass backed with potential energy) of the collapse has now been certifiably shifted, we can easily deduce that according to NIST's theory - there is insufficient data to conclude whether or not the upper floor mass from WTC 2 exerted the potential energy (required in a FULL collapse) down upon the entire lower structure of WTC 2. A car doesn't run without gas, and steel structured floors don't pulverize into the ground without a driving energy. The upper mass on WTC 2 was moving away from the lower floors at the time of its disappearance into the dust cloud, so we can reasonably conclude (backed with the LAW of inertia) that the critical upper mass was NOT a sufficient force in the collapse of WTC 2.

Your pseudo-scientific babble is worthless because it is based on the assumption that the top part pivoted on the perimeter. Your youtube clip shows clearly that this was not the case. The pivot is at or near the center of the building, so that the forward edge of the top crashed into the floor below rather than falling over the side.

 

[Arus808]

are coins defined as legal tender? i once tried to pay for a value meal at mcdonalds and they wouldnt take it, but if its legal tender i can go back and force them to, lol

actually, they can be considered a nuissance, as I quickly found out when trying to pay for something with 1000 pennies and that can be a reason for refusing to accept them

[derail] I was at the DMV today and plastered all over the place were signs saying that they take checks and money orders, but not cash. What happened to "legal tender for all debts, public and private"? And this is a government agency! Isn't it illegal to refuse cash as a form of payment?

[/derail]

Well, its odd, but it could be that because they are not really a "retail" outlet, they have no way of protecting their service reps from theft (no locked registers or cash boxes). though, a thief would have to be insane for stealing money from a DMV..they are usually within blocks of a police station or attached to one.

Here, they dont accept credit cards or debit cards; must be cash or checks.

 

[Minadin]

If you had owed them the money for previous services rendered and / or goods received, then that would be a debt and they would be obligated to accept whatever legal tender you offered as payment of that debt. Since you had not recieved the goods / services at the time you were trying to arrange payment, there is no debt, and they have the right to refuse service or sale if the terms of payment are not to their liking.

 

[Fnord]

No-one has provided spectroscopic proof that thermite was used in the destruction of the Twin Towers. All such 'proof' is either hearsay or conjecture.

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof.

-Fnord of Dyscordia-

 

[Fnord]

No-one has provided spectroscopic proof that thermite was used in the destruction of the Twin Towers. All such 'proof' is either hearsay or conjecture.

And twenty-four hours later, I am still waiting. Shall I stop holding my breath?

-Fnord of Dyscordia-

 

[Gravy]

And twenty-four hours later, I am still waiting. Shall I stop holding my breath?

-Fnord of Dyscordia-

Steven Jones proved Thermate use beyond a reasonable doubt. Here's how:

Cited a test of a dust sample from a few blocks away in which traces of barium and manganese were found.

Cited a test of another dust sample in which traces of aluminum were found.

Tested scrapings from a piece of steel. Found iron. Highly suspicious.

Cited Kevin Barnett's test that showed sulfidation of some steel.

Conclusion: a high-tech thermate arsenal was used to destroy the towers. QED.

 

[Mr. Skinny]

And twenty-four hours later, I am still waiting. Shall I stop holding my breath?

-Fnord of Dyscordia-

It's because you asked for spectroscopic proof. If you had asked for XRD, XRF, or some other form of proof, they would have provided it, but NOOOOO.....you have to have spectroscopic proof.

 

[JimBenArm]

Steven Jones proved Thermate use beyond a reasonable doubt. Here's how:

Cited a test of a dust sample from a few blocks away in which traces of barium and manganese were found.

Cited a test of another dust sample in which traces of aluminum were found.

Tested scrapings from a piece of steel. Found iron. Highly suspicious.

Cited Kevin Barnett's test that showed sulfidation of some steel.

Conclusion: a high-tech thermate arsenal was used to destroy the towers. QED.

He found IRON in STEEL? Well, now I'm convinced!

 

[gumboot]

He found IRON in STEEL? Well, now I'm convinced!

Typical JREF shills. Didn't mention THAT little detail did you? Oh no. Because you know if we knew, our eyes would be open to the TRUTH!!!

-Gumboot

 

[Fnord]

Barium? Magnesium? Thermite is not made from these. True, Mg can be used as an ignitor, but in such small amounts as to fall below normal environmental levels when sampled from "a few blocks away."

But Ba? Found in everyday samples of commercial drywall/plasterboard.

Thermite is composed of only Al powder and oxidised Fe (rusted iron), both of which are readily found in commercial building materials.

Where's my spectrograph, boys?

-Fnord of Dyscordia-

 

[Spins]

Barium? Magnesium? Thermite is not made from these. True, Mg can be used as an ignitor, but in such small amounts as to fall below normal environmental levels when sampled from "a few blocks away."

But Ba? Found in everyday samples of commercial drywall/plasterboard.

Thermite is composed of only Al powder and oxidised Fe (rusted iron), both of which are readily found in commercial building materials.

Where's my spectrograph, boys?

-Fnord of Dyscordia-

I'm assuming you are referring to Gravy's post, if so...

If CT'ers are claiming traces of Barium were found then they are trying to insinuate Thermate as opposed to, or in conjunction with Thermite was used to bring down the WTC. Also the claim that traces of Manganese were found means CT'ers are trying to insinuate that this element was used instead of Iron Oxide, also known as Manganese Thermite.

I don't know where your spectrograph is though.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

To clarify, barium nitrate can be added to base thermite (along with sulpher) to produce thermate.

 

[Fnord]

To clarify, barium nitrate can be added to base thermite (along with sulpher) to produce thermate.

"Well, there you go!" he said sarcastically. "A clear chain of evidence leading straight to the Lincoln Bedroom! How could I have missed it?"

Barium, in its various forms, is also used in:

- The petroleum industry.
- X-ray diagnostic work.
- Rat poison.
- Brick Making.
- Electrodes of fluorescent lamps.
- Vacuum tubes.
- Glassmaking (improves the luster of glass).
- Rubber production.
- Permanent white pigment ("Lithopone").
- Fireworks, welding, and green tracer rounds (Lest I be found guilty of selective evidence).

In my opinion, those items shown in bold will be found in any building constructed in the last 50 years. Your opinions may vary.

Anyone wanna borrow my Occam's Razor? It's very well broken in...

-Fnord of Dyscordia-

 

[A W Smith]

"Well, there you go!" he said sarcastically. "A clear chain of evidence leading straight to the Lincoln Bedroom! How could I have missed it?"

Barium, in its various forms, is also used in:

- The petroleum industry.
- X-ray diagnostic work.
- Rat poison.
- Brick Making.
- Electrodes of fluorescent lamps.
- Vacuum tubes.
- Glassmaking (improves the luster of glass).
- Rubber production.
- Permanent white pigment ("Lithopone").
- Fireworks, welding, and green tracer rounds (Lest I be found guilty of selective evidence).

In my opinion, those items shown in bold will be found in any building constructed in the last 50 years. Your opinions may vary.

Anyone wanna borrow my Occam's Razor? It's very well broken in...

-Fnord of Dyscordia-

and dont forget enemas!

 

[defaultdotxbe]

To clarify, barium nitrate can be added to base thermite (along with sulpher) to produce thermate.

i think its amusing that dr jones is always looking for components of thermite, rather than products of the reaction

like barium and sulphur, are they still barium and sulphur after a 3500 degree reaction? i would imagine the sulphur simply burns off, cant imagine the barium nitrate is much sturdier

aluminum oxide would be by far the most prominent substance around if thermite was used, has he found any of that?

 

[Fnord]

and dont forget enemas!

Oh ... that's what the doc meant!

While I was waiting to be X-rayed, every now and then someone's name would be called, followed shortly by what I thought were the words "Bury 'em!"

Stupid me...

 

[The Almond]

"Well, there you go!" he said sarcastically. "A clear chain of evidence leading straight to the Lincoln Bedroom! How could I have missed it?"

Barium, in its various forms, is also used in:

- The petroleum industry.
- X-ray diagnostic work.
- Rat poison.
- Brick Making.
- Electrodes of fluorescent lamps.
- Vacuum tubes.
- Glassmaking (improves the luster of glass).
- Rubber production.
- Permanent white pigment ("Lithopone").
- Fireworks, welding, and green tracer rounds (Lest I be found guilty of selective evidence).

In my opinion, those items shown in bold will be found in any building constructed in the last 50 years. Your opinions may vary.

Anyone wanna borrow my Occam's Razor? It's very well broken in...

-Fnord of Dyscordia-

An interesting side note, barium is also found in fly ash, which is an admixture in most concrete. Barium is about 1% of all fly ash, and fly ash is about 20% of cement which is about 11% of concrete. That gives a grand total of barium in 0.0022% of concrete.

It may not sound like much, but when you talk about 1,000,000 kg of concrete, that's 22 kg of barium from concrete alone.

Not that old Thermite Jones cares...

 

[Fnord]

Then the Barium Theory is inconclusive, at best.

And a desperate attempt at attracting attention, at worst.

Next case?