Fire, steel, and 911.

In my experience, it's likely that they told the structural engineer about the impact but not the fire protection engineer, in which case it's the fault of the coordinating team for not considering all the areas that would be impacted, but, it's also equally likely that the fire protection designer was more concerned with just getting his rating as easily as possible, and considered the 707 scenario either to be extremely unlikely or out of his realm. I suppose any of those would be considered a "cock-up", but really, it's not very useful to assign blame at this point, we should take that information and use it to fix problems going forward.

I'll go the other way a wee bit. I bet they designed it, then someone said "what happens if a plane hits it". They ran the figures, found it was fine because of redundancy, and left it at that.

At the end of the day the aircraft impact would be low on the list of credible events, and I doubt it was ever fully followed through in the design process. You know engineers - if there isn't a BS/EN or other recongised standard telling them to do it, then they don't do it. :D

I'd love to blame the QS just on principle, but can't see how......yet!
 
So, I think it's safe to assume, that most of you (including NIST) believe that: Plane impacts + raging fires + energy created by falling mass = Crumbling Buildings. Here is an excerpt from the bible of WTC reports:

"The towers likely would NOT have collapsed under the combined effects of aircraft impact damage and the extensive, multi-floor fires if the thermal insulation had not been widely dislodged or had been only minimally dislodged by aircraft impact." NIST, p. xxxviii

I think what they're saying here is that - ultimately...the key component in this whole equation i.e. Plane impacts + raging fires + energy created by falling mass = Crumbling Buildings - is the fact that the thermal insulation was dislodged from the steel structure of the WTC Towers. Because the NIST clearly states...that the towers LIKELY would NOT have collapsed from the impact and ensuing fires...had the thermal insulation remained intact. Wait, let me do it one better:

"The two aircraft hit the towers at high speed and did considerable damage to principal structural components: core columns, perimeter columns, and floors. However, the towers withstood the impacts and would have remained standing were it not for the dislodged insulation and the subsequent multifloor fires." NIST, p.171-172

Okay - scratch "LIKELY" now they are saying that the two towers WOULD HAVE remained standing if the insulation would have survived the plane impact. So how is the NIST so sure the insulation was even knocked off significantly? Surely, there isn't any evidence to unequivocally prove that the insulation from the floors that suffered the impacts was dislodged...so aren't they completely hypothesizing without a shred of actual proof? If so, does this "expert" theory sound all that solid and/or concrete if at the very foundation...we are working from a complete and utter assumption? Oh yea, I forget they actually set up some reenactments wherein trying to simulate the impacts of the planes on the towers - in hopes of determining what kind of damage it would have done to the insulation. Do you want to know one of the simulations they tried? They took and shot bullets at a small object covered in insulation. The bullets knocked off chips of the insulation so they concluded that the plane impact probably knocked off most of the thermal insulation. Does this sound very scientific and/or conclusive to you? Don't you think they would have spent most of their time on this most critical analysis since, they even admit...that although several events factored into the entire collapse - impacts, fires, upper mass bearing down - that...all of this would have been prevented if the thermal insulation would have remained intact. The brightest minds in the world and the best they can come up with to simulate a plane impacting a building is shooting bullets at a small block sitting in a wood box. One of the most important investigations in the history of the world...and this is what these "experts" come up with?


Now, I would like to address the, "falling mass," part of the equation. Here is another excerpt from NIST's report:

"The structure below the level of collapse initiation offered minimal resistance to the falling building mass .... The potential energy released by the downward movement of the large building mass far exceeded the capacity of the intact structure below to absorb that .... Since the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little resistance to the tremendous energy released by the falling building mass, the building section above came down essentially in free fall .... As the stories below sequentially failed, the falling mass increased, further increasing the demand on the floors below, which were unable to arrest the moving mass." NIST's Final Report

Okay, so according to this theory...once the fire had damaged the structure enough to initiate the collapse...at this point - the falling mass and potential energy it released onto the lowers floors is ultimately what caused the pulverization of the building. I think we can all agree, that without the falling mass (upper floors) above the impact point....the lower floors obviously would NOT have just crumbled to the ground, since there would have been a clear absence of the energy it would have taken to power such an event. So again - NIST's theory is that this falling building mass (upper floors above the impact) smashed down upon the lower floors causing them to pulverize into dust. The problem we have with this theory, is that we lose sight of the entire building about half way through the collapse due to the enormous cloud of dust that engulfs each tower during it's downward descent. So, how can NIST even be all that certain, that the upper mass remained intact during the entire collapse? They can't...and it's just another critical point that is left up to complete speculation. I, for one - will at least present this video, which shows the collapse of WTC 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u_k217RkUo

In this clip, you can clearly see that the critical upper mass of WTC 2 begins to fall over and to the side, just shortly after the collapse begins. A simple lesson in one of the fundamental laws of physics i.e. inertia - states that...A body moving on a level surface will continue in the same direction at a constant speed unless disturbed. So, following...SCIENTIFIC law, the upper mass will not and cannot move itself back to it's original position i.e. directly above the lower floors. (that is - barring an attempt by superman to swoop in and push it back over there) So, what does this tell us? Well, a lot. Since the scientifically measurable force created by the sine qua non (upper floor mass backed with potential energy) of the collapse has now been certifiably shifted, we can easily deduce that according to NIST's theory - there is insufficient data to conclude whether or not the upper floor mass from WTC 2 exerted the potential energy (required in a FULL collapse) down upon the entire lower structure of WTC 2. A car doesn't run without gas, and steel structured floors don't pulverize into the ground without a driving energy. The upper mass on WTC 2 was moving away from the lower floors at the time of its disappearance into the dust cloud, so we can reasonably conclude (backed with the LAW of inertia) that the critical upper mass was NOT a sufficient force in the collapse of WTC 2.


Now, on to much more important evidence. As has been mentioned many times before, there were lots of reports of molten metal at the scene of the WTC Towers. We are all familiar with the pools below the rumble at ground zero, but there was also some molten metal seen pouring from the floors that were damaged during the plane impacts. NIST even confirms that molten metal was, in fact, pouring out of WTC 2 shortly before it's collapse.

"It has been reported in the FEMA report (McAllister 2002) as well as in the media that what appeared to be molten metal was observed pouring from the north face near the northeast corner prior to the collapse of WTC 2. The composition of the flowing material can only be the subject of speculation, but its behavior suggests it could have been molten aluminum." NISTNCSTAR 1-5A Chapter 9 Appendix C p.p. 375-376 (pdf p.p. 79-89)

Here is a great video and pic...clearly showing this molten metal at the towers:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=545886459853896774

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/3550/thermiteic0.jpg

NIST wants to ASSUME it's aluminum. (from the planes) The problem here is that molten aluminum doesn't look like that. Molten aluminum looks clear almost water-like. Here is a pic and a video demonstrating this:

http://melbourne.indymedia.org/uploads/aluminium.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gge5NyqoNIQ

Now, before some of you say, that molten aluminum can also be red or yellow-orangish/red...well, yes - you are absolutely right. See, any molten metal can glow red or yellow-orangish/red if heated to a hot enough temperature...and that would be around 2400°C. So while a jet-fuel fire, which has a maximum burning temperature at around 1100°C - has the ability to liquefy aluminum (which has a melting point of only 660°C) the problem here is that it's scientifically IMPOSSIBLE for a jet-fuel based fire to create yellow-orangish/red molten aluminum, because as I have stated you need extreme heat in order to give the clear molten aluminum a yellow-orangish/red glow. The only way to really accomplish this (turning molten aluminum - red) would be to heat it in some type of furnace.

"In no instance did NIST report that steel in the WTC towers melted due to the fires." NIST FAQ

Really, okay...well, something doesn't add up, because the NIST has already addressed the fact that molten metal can be seen pouring from WTC 2. So, what is this melted metal substance?

"NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius and 640 degrees Celsius (depending on the particular alloy), well below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius) in the vicinity of the fires. Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is NO VISUAL INDICATION that the material flowing from the tower was burning."

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

"Pure liquid aluminum would be expected to appear silvery. However, the molten metal was very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers) which can display an orange glow, much like logs burning in a fireplace." NIST FAQ

Hey, while we're at it...why don't we just claim that unicorns are likely to have collapsed floors 28-45 due to excessive gallivanting. Anyway, let's just assume for a second that since NIST even admits molten aluminum is silvery and NOT red or yellow-orangish/red, that the molten metal isn't the aluminum from the plane...well, by process of elimination it surely has to be the steel from the WTC structure, right? Well, not according to the NIST report. So...what else could it possibly be? We know the molten metal exists, because NIST even admits it - so once again...if it's not the aluminum from the plane and it's not the steel from the WTC 2, than what else is there? This is where thermite comes into play. We've all heard about thermite, yes - but do most of us even know what it is? Have we all seen it in action, and/or tried to mentally conceive of it's appearance and/or properties? Well, here is a video of a thermite reaction:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEmHJORTlqk

Does this look very familiar? See, the thing is (are you ready?) that once ignited (via spark, fuse or flame) thermite actually...get this...thermite actually turns INTO MOLTEN METAL! Yes, you read that right. Thermite is a chemical compound containing metal elements...and the really cool thing, is that once it's ignited by a simple flame...a chemical reaction goes off, and it can actually burn up to 2500°C - so you see - since the reaction gives off such extreme heat...the metal contained in this compound instantly turns into molten metal. This is why it's used to cut steel, because at these high tempatures i.e. 2500°C - thermite can slice through just about anything. And, just so there is no confusion here...the product of a thermite reaction (COMPLETELY isolated and independent from any other metal or steel) is actually molten metal. Now playback this video again:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=545886459853896774

And you will clearly see, that this pouring molten metal is NOT aluminum from the plane...it's NOT steel from the WTC structure...but rather - WELL placed THERMITE burning from the fire that was set off from the impact. And, this is all the more evident by the way this flowing liquid metal is giving off sparks which is a CLEAR VISIBLE INDICATION THAT THIS FLOWING MATERIAL IS BURNING! (Sparks are also a classic characterstic of a thermite reaction - as visible in the above linked video) And this is all backed with pure scientific evidence....NOT some harebrained assumption or guess. There is nothing in those buildings - including the jet fuel - that could have burned hot enough to turn steel and/or aluminum into an yellow-orangish/red liquid. But, a simple fire igniting some well placed thermite could easily turn into yellow-orangish/red molten metal. I think most people were envisioning...thermite as some kind of liquid or powder, that turned other metal into a liquid...they didn't know that...thermite by itself - PRODUCES MOLTEN METAL once ignited!

So going back to my opening statement...what do plane impacts, thermal insulation dislodging and potential energy generated by falling building masses all have in common? THEY DON'T EVEN EXIST!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD06SAf0p9A


Open your eyes.

Nice post kingdom. Just wanted to say that this is the kind of claim that people can actually work with. You're making specific claims, which puts you above 98% of the CT population in my book, who are only capable of pointing to YouTube videos and shouting "JUST LOOK AT IT OMG! CD!"
 
Nice post kingdom. Just wanted to say that this is the kind of claim that people can actually work with. You're making specific claims, which puts you above 98% of the CT population in my book, who are only capable of pointing to YouTube videos and shouting "JUST LOOK AT IT OMG! CD!"


Rubbish. I've called him on some of the structural issues and he's refusing to answer.
 
I'm not saying he's right. I'm saying this reflects a higher standard of posting he's achieved.

And from what I can see, he hasn't dodged your issues or anything, he just hasn't posted again yet.
 
I'm not saying he's right. I'm saying this reflects a higher standard of posting he's achieved.

And from what I can see, he hasn't dodged your issues or anything, he just hasn't posted again yet.

He's had all day, and has posted many times in the interim. If he wants more time, he only has to say but having seen how he handled such things on previous posts I think he's just avoiding hard questions.
 
If that really was thermite pouring out of the side of the South Tower just before the collapse, that sure brings up a lot of sticky questions.

* How did it get to the edge of the building, if it supposedly was being used to cut core columns?

* How can you cut core (vertical) columns with an incendiary anyway?

* How did they figure out how to place the thermite at the exact floor that would be most heavily damaged from the plane?

* How did they keep the thermite from igniting right after the impact?

* How could this system that they rigged up to cut vertical columns survive an airplane impact and still be functional?

* Why did no tenants notice all this thermite before the crash?
 
I'm not saying he's right. I'm saying this reflects a higher standard of posting he's achieved.

And from what I can see, he hasn't dodged your issues or anything, he just hasn't posted again yet.
I would concur with that assessment. Our tax-dodging friend 28th Kingdom has indeed given us much more information than the average CT wannabe. I predict that he will ignore or fail to understand the criticism, but perhaps not.

The problem with him giving us this information is that he's wrong, and it's open-and-shut to prove so. This is why so many Loosers enter "just asking questions" mode, because it prevents them from being shut down.

Others have already done a good job of finding the errors. Let me pick just a couple out of the very long, and somewhat tortured, logic:

The problem we have with this theory, is that we lose sight of the entire building about half way through the collapse due to the enormous cloud of dust that engulfs each tower during it's downward descent. So, how can NIST even be all that certain, that the upper mass remained intact during the entire collapse? They can't...and it's just another critical point that is left up to complete speculation.
Doesn't have to, your argument violates conservation of mass, energy, and momentum -- the trifecta! Broken or intact, the momentum of the falling block remains the same. The energy surplus is so large that even if most of it spilled over the side -- without first contacting the lower core, which it would have to in order to gain lateral velocity -- would still give us total collapse. We've been over this endlessy.

NIST wants to ASSUME it's aluminum. (from the planes) The problem here is that molten aluminum doesn't look like that. Molten aluminum looks clear almost water-like. Here is a pic and a video demonstrating this:
Transparent aluminum? :D No. You're just plain wrong.

And you will clearly see, that this pouring molten metal is NOT aluminum from the plane...it's NOT steel from the WTC structure...but rather - WELL placed THERMITE burning from the fire that was set off from the impact. And, this is all the more evident by the way this flowing liquid metal is giving off sparks which is a CLEAR VISIBLE INDICATION THAT THIS FLOWING MATERIAL IS BURNING!
So let me get this straight: Your "well-placed Thermite" went off well before the collapse, and didn't contribute to cutting columns? What is that all about? I thought these mythical, unobtanium devices were only fired to topple the structure, not at random. So your only evidence for Thermite is totally uncorrelated with the collapse, and seen far away from the core columns?

Oh, and you get sparks without burning in many cases. Drive your car over a speedbump too fast if you don't believe me. Or these "sparks" could have been burning of materials with lower ignition temperatures, for instance office materials, the ones you claim without support couldn't have been "mixed in" as NIST hypothesizes.

As before, the Troother who actually tries to give us a coherent theory is leaps and bounds above the intellectual graffiti artists we see here so often, agreed. But all they do is debunk themselves. This is why there are so few of them left.
 
are coins defined as legal tender? i once tried to pay for a value meal at mcdonalds and they wouldnt take it, but if its legal tender i can go back and force them to, lol

I remember a long time ago there was a circus group that had been fined for some bogus reason, and they unsuccessfully fought the charges. They finally gave in and showed up at the courthouse dressed in their clown costumes, paying their fine in the smallest allowable denomination: nickels. A huge barrel of them.
 
So, I think it's safe to assume, that most of you (including NIST) believe that: Plane impacts + raging fires + energy created by falling mass = Crumbling Buildings.
yes that is what the majority of people believe. Including probably every single architect and civil/architectural engineer in the country who has seen the evidence. if not the planet

Here is an excerpt from the bible of WTC reports:

"The towers likely would NOT have collapsed under the combined effects of aircraft impact damage and the extensive, multi-floor fires if the thermal insulation had not been widely dislodged or had been only minimally dislodged by aircraft impact." NIST, p. xxxviii

I think what they're saying here is that - ultimately...the key component in this whole equation i.e. Plane impacts + raging fires + energy created by falling mass = Crumbling Buildings - is the fact that the thermal insulation was dislodged from the steel structure of the WTC Towers. Because the NIST clearly states...that the towers LIKELY would NOT have collapsed from the impact and ensuing fires...had the thermal insulation remained intact.
yes see above
Wait, let me do it one better:

"The two aircraft hit the towers at high speed and did considerable damage to principal structural components: core columns, perimeter columns, and floors. However, the towers withstood the impacts and would have remained standing were it not for the dislodged insulation and the subsequent multifloor fires." NIST, p.171-172

OK - scratch "LIKELY" now they are saying that the two towers WOULD HAVE remained standing if the insulation would have survived the plane impact.
OK i see you have gone less than two paragraphs and are already building a straw man (see my bolding).. but continue
So how is the NIST so sure the insulation was even knocked off significantly? Surely, there isn't any evidence to unequivocally prove that the insulation from the floors that suffered the impacts was dislodged..<snip snip snip>
OK let me tell you a little story about one of my personal experiences with fire protection. about 25 years ago when i was working for a commercial contractor we had a small job to install a suspended ceiling in a bingo hall in the basement of an auditorium. This hall already had a cement plaster suspended ceiling on wire lath over bar joists. we had to suspend the ceiling. since no architectural or engineering plans existed for this task i was concerned with adding dead load to the existing wire lath and plaster ceiling. certainly we didn't want the ceiling to collapse in a cascading failure onto the bingo players below. So instead of attempting to screw into the plaster and wire lath i made an initial inspection hole and did my layout for the wire hangers based on the above bar joist layout and made holes about the size of a palm to attach the wires to the bar joists. The bar joists had fireproofing on them that easily crumbled just by wrapping a wire around them. I finished up the task but i forgot one very important detail which I caught hell for. I neglected to patch the many five inch diameter holes i made in the plaster ceiling above the new suspended fire rated ceiling and below the fire protected bar joists with 5/8 type x gypsum board. So the company sent someone for the callback (my co worker Dave) so in effect there was triple redundancy to protect the steel from fire when we were done. i learned from that job how fragile spray on fire protection really is. Kingdom how many jobs have you encountered fire protection on?
Now, I would like to address the, "falling mass," part of the equation. Here is another excerpt from NIST's report:

"The structure below the level of collapse initiation offered minimal resistance to the falling building mass .... The potential energy released by the downward movement of the large building mass far exceeded the capacity of the intact structure below to absorb that .... Since the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little resistance to the tremendous energy released by the falling building mass, the building section above came down essentially in free fall .... As the stories below sequentially failed, the falling mass increased, further increasing the demand on the floors below, which were unable to arrest the moving mass." NIST's Final Report

OK, so according to this theory...once the fire had damaged the structure enough to initiate the collapse...at this point - the falling mass and potential energy it released onto the lowers floors is ultimately what caused the pulverization of the building. I think we can all agree, that without the falling mass (upper floors) above the impact point....the lower floors obviously would NOT have just crumbled to the ground, since there would have been a clear absence of the energy it would have taken to power such an event. So again - NIST's theory is that this falling building mass (upper floors above the impact) smashed down upon the lower floors causing them to pulverize into dust. The problem we have with this theory, is that we lose sight of the entire building about half way through the collapse due to the enormous cloud of dust that engulfs each tower during it's downward descent. So, how can NIST even be all that certain, that the upper mass remained intact during the entire collapse? They can't...and it's just another critical point that is left up to complete speculation.,<snip snip snip nonsensical boob tube video>

Wrong wrong wrong just simply wrong. Einstein where do you think the resultant debris (or dust cloud as you insist on calling it)between the upper and crushed floors went? even if you were to hold the upper stories in mid air a moment after the collapse started you STILL have the debris below the impact zone crushing the floors below. not to mention the momentum gained by the increasing mass as floors collapse.

In this clip, you can clearly see that the critical upper mass of WTC 2 begins to fall over and to the side, just shortly after the collapse begins. A simple lesson in one of the fundamental laws of physics i.e. inertia - states that...A body moving on a level surface will continue in the same direction at a constant speed unless disturbed. So, following...SCIENTIFIC law, the upper mass will not and cannot move itself back to it's original position i.e. directly above the lower floors. (that is - barring an attempt by superman to swoop in and push it back over there) So, what does this tell us? Well, a lot. Since the scientifically measurable force created by the sine qua non (upper floor mass backed with potential energy) of the collapse has now been certifiably shifted, we can easily deduce that according to NIST's theory - there is insufficient data to conclude whether or not the upper floor mass from WTC 2 exerted the potential energy (required in a FULL collapse) down upon the entire lower structure of WTC 2. A car doesn't run without gas, and steel structured floors don't pulverize into the ground without a driving energy. The upper mass on WTC 2 was moving away from the lower floors at the time of its disappearance into the dust cloud, so we can reasonably conclude (backed with the LAW of inertia) that the critical upper mass was NOT a sufficient force in the collapse of WTC 2.

key word "a body moving on a level surface".. wow how can you even type that and continue on with the above paragraph. that sentence disqualifies the argument you continued to type. let me explain. As momentum increased in its plummet towards earth the energy its earthward plunge exceeded the energy of its sideways tumble.

Now, on to much more important evidence. As has been mentioned many times before, there were lots of reports of molten metal at the scene of the WTC Towers. We are all familiar with the pools below the rumble at ground zero, but there was also some molten metal seen pouring from the floors that were damaged during the plane impacts. NIST even confirms that molten metal was, in fact, pouring out of WTC 2 shortly before it's collapse.

"It has been reported in the FEMA report (McAllister 2002) as well as in the media that what appeared to be molten metal was observed pouring from the north face near the northeast corner prior to the collapse of WTC 2. The composition of the flowing material can only be the subject of speculation, but its behavior suggests it could have been molten aluminum." NISTNCSTAR 1-5A Chapter 9 Appendix C p.p. 375-376 (pdf p.p. 79-89)

NIST wants to ASSUME it's aluminum. (from the planes) The problem here is that molten aluminum doesn't look like that. Molten aluminum looks clear almost water-like. Here is a pic and a video demonstrating this:

Now, before some of you say, that molten aluminum can also be red or yellow-orangish/red...well, yes - you are absolutely right. See, any molten metal can glow red or yellow-orangish/red if heated to a hot enough temperature...and that would be around 2400°C. So while a jet-fuel fire, which has a maximum burning temperature at around 1100°C - has the ability to liquefy aluminum (which has a melting point of only 660°C) the problem here is that it's scientifically IMPOSSIBLE for a jet-fuel based fire to create yellow-orangish/red molten aluminum, because as I have stated you need extreme heat in order to give the clear molten aluminum a yellow-orangish/red glow. The only way to really accomplish this (turning molten aluminum - red) would be to heat it in some type of furnace.

"In no instance did NIST report that steel in the WTC towers melted due to the fires." NIST FAQ

Really, okay...well, something doesn't add up, because the NIST has already addressed the fact that molten metal can be seen pouring from WTC 2. So, what is this melted metal substance?

"NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius and 640 degrees Celsius (depending on the particular alloy), well below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius) in the vicinity of the fires. Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is NO VISUAL INDICATION that the material flowing from the tower was burning."

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

"Pure liquid aluminum would be expected to appear silvery. However, the molten metal was very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers) which can display an orange glow, much like logs burning in a fireplace." NIST FAQ

Hey, while we're at it...why don't we just claim that unicorns are likely to have collapsed floors 28-45 due to excessive gallivanting. Anyway, let's just assume for a second that since NIST even admits molten aluminum is silvery and NOT red or yellow-orangish/red, that the molten metal isn't the aluminum from the plane...well, by process of elimination it surely has to be the steel from the WTC structure, right? Well, not according to the NIST report. So...what else could it possibly be? We know the molten metal exists, because NIST even admits it - so once again...if it's not the aluminum from the plane and it's not the steel from the WTC 2, than what else is there? This is where thermite comes into play. We've all heard about thermite, yes - but do most of us even know what it is? Have we all seen it in action, and/or tried to mentally conceive of it's appearance and/or properties? <snip snip Bs>

let me ask you. have you ever seen slag on top of molten metal being poured out? What does it look like? Are you aware that slag is whats left of impurities in a molten metal and floats to the top? What do you suppose slag and flaming debris on top of molten metal would look like if poured out the side of a building? yaknow.. slag made up of fabrics carpet, desks paper cardboard, HUMAN REMAINS, ceiling tile, painted drywall, plastic, PVC, abs, particle board office cube partitions, glass, all combined together as they are pushed to THAT corner of the building after an aircraft collision? and no one has even mentioned the possibility of magnesium which is a metal that actually BURNS.

.it's NOT steel from the WTC structure...but rather - WELL placed THERMITE burning from the fire that was set off from the impact. And, this is all the more evident by the way this flowing liquid metal is giving off sparks which is a CLEAR VISIBLE INDICATION THAT THIS FLOWING MATERIAL IS BURNING! (Sparks are also a classic characterstic of a thermite reaction - as visible in the above linked video) And this is all backed with pure scientific evidence....NOT some harebrained assumption or guess. There is nothing in those buildings - including the jet fuel - that could have burned hot enough to turn steel and/or aluminum into an yellow-orangish/red liquid. But, a simple fire igniting some well placed thermite could easily turn into yellow-orangish/red molten metal. I think most people were envisioning...thermite as some kind of liquid or powder, that turned other metal into a liquid...they didn't know that...thermite by itself - PRODUCES MOLTEN METAL once ignited!
yeah right thermite the same five pounds of thermite shown in a video which successfully burned a hole in an 0.18 thick automobile hood the size of a palm print.
Open your eyes.

open your eyes and empty our minds as you said earlier?

Well OK Mentok the Mind taker WoooWOOOOOooo
 
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Even solid glass will throw sparks when held against a spinning grind wheel.

The mere presence of sparks proves the presence of friction, such as when two or more pieces of building material rub against each other during a collapse.
...
On another note, a friend tried to prove that exotic 'rare-earth metal explosives' (REM Squibs) were used to destroy the Twin Towers, by pointing a hand-held spectrometer at a video monitor while it displayed the playback of the Twin Towers collapse.

Sure enough, the spectrometer displayed the spectral signature of rare-earth phosphors, which my friend enthusiastically claimed as proof of his particular conspiracy theory.

I then pointed the same instrument at the same monitor while it displayed a 'Tellytubbies' video and got the same results.

I told him that either the video monitor's CRT uses rare-earth phosphors to reproduce the video image (true), or that the Tellytubbies were somehow involved in the conspiracy (false).

He's still working on that one. :D

-Fnord of Dyscordia-
 
On another note, a friend tried to prove that exotic 'rare-earth metal explosives' (REM Squibs) were used to destroy the Twin Towers, by pointing a hand-held spectrometer at a video monitor while it displayed the playback of the Twin Towers collapse.
Wow.

I bet if someone did that experiment and took a video of it, then uploaded that to YouTube, that 28 IQ would post it as evidence.
 
Well with REM it's (nearly) all good... but sst was the first that came to mind....:D
 
28th as failed to make a point with facts?

Will he be back soon to spread more BS, we can grow mushrooms next time.

So, did the IRS, or PNAC do it?
 
are coins defined as legal tender? i once tried to pay for a value meal at mcdonalds and they wouldnt take it, but if its legal tender i can go back and force them to, lol

[derail] I was at the DMV today and plastered all over the place were signs saying that they take checks and money orders, but not cash. What happened to "legal tender for all debts, public and private"? And this is a government agency! Isn't it illegal to refuse cash as a form of payment?

[/derail]

Okay - scratch "LIKELY" now they are saying that the two towers WOULD HAVE remained standing if the insulation would have survived the plane impact. So how is the NIST so sure the insulation was even knocked off significantly? Surely, there isn't any evidence to unequivocally prove that the insulation from the floors that suffered the impacts was dislodged...so aren't they completely hypothesizing without a shred of actual proof? If so, does this "expert" theory sound all that solid and/or concrete if at the very foundation...we are working from a complete and utter assumption? Oh yea, I forget they actually set up some reenactments wherein trying to simulate the impacts of the planes on the towers - in hopes of determining what kind of damage it would have done to the insulation. Do you want to know one of the simulations they tried? They took and shot bullets at a small object covered in insulation. The bullets knocked off chips of the insulation so they concluded that the plane impact probably knocked off most of the thermal insulation. Does this sound very scientific and/or conclusive to you?

Actually, yes, it does. It's called "modeling", and it's used all the time in science. It reminds me a bit of what goes on in a crime lab.

You may as well be equally amazed that we can look through a spectroscope here on earth and determine what a star is made of.

28th Kingdom, it's easy to convince laymen that you know what you are talking about.


I disagree. I consider myself a layman, and I saw all sorts of errors in his missive, even before others pointed them out.
 

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