Fight Science! Did anyone watch this?

[Wudang]

But sure, I'd be thrilled if an Nth dan in jujitsu or hapkido or some such style showed up to class and I got to wrestle them. In fact, I wrestled a black belt in hapkido when I was a beginner. However I only found out he was a black belt in hapkido much later, because you sure couldn't tell on the mat. Big kudos to him for taking up BJJ as well.

And how do you think a boxer would score? How do you think you'd score if you turned up at a club that did proper full contact instead of just "grappling full contact"? When was the last time you rode a punch?
Hint - "full contact" where you can't hit people is generally regarded as something of an oxymoron.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Wudang has a piont. However, these hapkido people tend not to compete at MMA events as well. Why is that?

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

And how do you think a boxer would score?

Not well, but I don't understand the relevance of the question.

How do you think you'd score if you turned up at a club that did proper full contact instead of just "grappling full contact"?

All else being equal I'd get wrecked, but I don't understand the relevance of the question.

When was the last time you rode a punch?

I don't understand the relevance of the question.

Hint - "full contact" where you can't hit people is generally regarded as something of an oxymoron.

"Generally regarded" among which set of uninformed or stupid people? There are full contact grappling styles like judo and the derivative BJJ that broadly speaking work. There are semi-contact grappling styles like JJJ and hapkido that broadly speaking don't work. If you think there is a better term to describe the difference that is more widely used then share it with us. However I don't understand the relevance of the hint either.

What point or points did you think you were making? Generally speaking rhetorical questions are great tools for obfuscation but terrible tools for rational discourse.

 

[Wudang]

Not well, but I don't understand the relevance of the question.
"Generally regarded" among which set of uninformed or stupid people? There are full contact grappling styles like judo and the derivative BJJ that broadly speaking work. There are semi-contact grappling styles like JJJ and hapkido that broadly speaking don't work. If you think there is a better term to describe the difference that is more widely used then share it with us. However I don't understand the relevance of the hint either.

What point or points did you think you were making? Generally speaking rhetorical questions are great tools for obfuscation but terrible tools for rational discourse.

If you judge the fighting ability of someone from a style that focuses on hitting in a game that doesn't let him hit, it kind of hampers him a bit. I didn't think it was that subtle a point.

Okay - in plain english. You are full of yourself doing "full contact grappling" but restrict yourself to a style where you can't get hit, and then assess the effectiveness of other styles based on their performance in your watered-down practice. You're kidding yourself.
If you don't allow people to hit each other you're just playing rough.
Conversely, btw, if you just allow people to hit each other and not grapple you're leaving yourself wide open.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

If you judge the fighting ability of someone from a style that focuses on hitting in a game that doesn't let him hit, it kind of hampers him a bit. I didn't think it was that subtle a point.

I see now where we got muddled. You thought hapkido is "a style that focuses on hitting". It's not, it's the Korean knockoff of Japanese jujitsu, just as tae kwan do is the Korean knockoff of Shotokan karate.

It's primarily a semi-contact grappling style, with limited semi-contact striking elements.

Okay - in plain english. You are full of yourself doing "full contact grappling" but restrict yourself to a style where you can't get hit, and then assess the effectiveness of other styles based on their performance in your watered-down practice. You're kidding yourself.

That would be silly. I'm happy to assess a grappling style based on whether or not it makes a noticeable difference to someone's ability to grapple, or a striking style by whether or not it makes a noticeable difference to someone's ability to kickbox, but that's it.

If you don't allow people to hit each other you're just playing rough.
Conversely, btw, if you just allow people to hit each other and not grapple you're leaving yourself wide open.

That's the conclusion the evidence available leads to. Pure grappling won the first few UFCs before people knew what was what, but nowadays you're an idiot to even enter an MMA event without decent skills in every range.

 

[thaiboxerken]

The deadly streets are the MMA fighter's worst nightmare because:

1. Lava and glass make ground-fighting ineffective.
2. You never fight against just one guy in the street, but are always outnumbered.
3. Weapons, everyone in the street carries guns and knives and swords.
4. Eyegouges are the most deadly and effective techniques.
5. Groin shots become effective in the street, although they didn't work in the ring when groin shots were legal.
6. Wrist-locks become effective tools in the street, even though they are legal in MMA but don't work in the ring.
7. We know those 6 oz MMA gloves are like pillows on the hand, thus we know MMA fighters can't withstand ungloved strikes.
8. Real masters of martial arts never fight in competitions because they are too deadly.
9. Chi is real.
10. The ring is not realistic because there are rules, a ref to stop fatalities and no one is trying to actually kill each other. However, the dojo is realistic even though there are rules, sensei's to stop fatalities and injury and no one is trying to actually kill each other.

Did I cover all of the arguments yet?

 

[cgordon]

Did I cover all of the arguments yet?

You're cherry-picking. Need to broaden your horizons (or maybe just your definitions).

 

[Jekyll]

Pure grappling won the first few UFCs before people knew what was what, but nowadays you're an idiot to even enter an MMA event without decent skills in every range.

Royce may have won the first UFC's on grappling alone, but he clearly trained against strikers and had specific tactics to deal with them. *Cough*Gracie Tackle*cough*. To call this 'pure grappling' is some what misleading and makes the no hitting variety of BJJ sound like more than it actually is.

 

[Wudang]

The deadly streets are the MMA fighter's worst nightmare because:
Did I cover all of the arguments yet?

No, you missed everything I said.
1. You may not wish a fight to escalate. You might want to defuse a situation with one agressive drunk and some some mates who would get involved if it gets nasty.
2. You might never have spent any time training to be ready for the other guy so some weed takes you from behind.
3. UK police train in wrist locks and similar restraining techniques because they work well enough for them.

 

[Wudang]

I see now where we got muddled. You thought hapkido is "a style that focuses on hitting". It's not, it's the Korean knockoff of Japanese jujitsu, just as tae kwan do is the Korean knockoff of Shotokan karate.

It is indeed and I just forgot.

It's primarily a semi-contact grappling style, with limited semi-contact striking elements.

So different striking rules than you allow?

That would be silly. I'm happy to assess a grappling style based on whether or not it makes a noticeable difference to someone's ability to grapple, or a striking style by whether or not it makes a noticeable difference to someone's ability to kickbox, but that's it.

That's the conclusion the evidence available leads to. Pure grappling won the first few UFCs before people knew what was what, but nowadays you're an idiot to even enter an MMA event without decent skills in every range.

But. Any difference in rules slows you down enormously. Example - when I trained in Shorinji kempo we decided to ramp up our sparring, talked to a variety of malaysian and malaysian chinese guys who did some tough stuff and got boxing headguards and bong sau gloves so we could grapple. Okay still pretty wimpy sparring (except by Kevin's standards). A couple of us tried the sparring at the next UK Shorinji Kempo gathering. We got hammered because we had to think all the time about what was legal and what wasn't. I distinctly remember someone doing a reverse hook kick on me and me starting 3 different counters all of which were illegal by their rules and me aborting them. In a bout with my rules that guy would have been
a) kicked hard in the groin
b) put in a leg scissors
c) had an elbow strike in the spine

 

[thaiboxerken]

No, you missed everything I said.
1. You may not wish a fight to escalate. You might want to defuse a situation with one agressive drunk and some some mates who would get involved if it gets nasty.

What the hell does that have to do with martial arts training?

2. You might never have spent any time training to be ready for the other guy so some weed takes you from behind.

And you get this at the "street fighting" dojo? Do you honestly believe that MMA guys don't know how to deal with bear hugs from behind and the like? Is this a 6th sense type of deal you're talking about?

3. UK police train in wrist locks and similar restraining techniques because they work well enough for them.

Sure they do.

 

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Ken,

Did I cover all of the arguments yet?

You didn't cover any of them. Not only are those ridiculous straw-man versions of what has been said, but the conclusions you facetiously draw from them aren't even close to what anybody is actually claiming.


Dr. Stupid

 

[Wudang]

What the hell does that have to do with martial arts training?

That may be the stupidest question I have ever come across. I suppose the answer is "Nothing if you're only interested in sports".

And you get this at the "street fighting" dojo? Do you honestly believe that MMA guys don't know how to deal with bear hugs from behind and the like? Is this a 6th sense type of deal you're talking about?

This comes close though. If you had the slightest clue (which the above and your argument that street fights are about 2 buddies arguing over a girl) you might grasp that there are other scenarios than the other guy being directly behind you.

Sure they do.

WTF? Are you saying the UK police don't train like that? Or that they can't restrain people?

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Royce may have won the first UFC's on grappling alone, but he clearly trained against strikers and had specific tactics to deal with them. *Cough*Gracie Tackle*cough*. To call this 'pure grappling' is some what misleading and makes the no hitting variety of BJJ sound like more than it actually is.

What you call a Gracie Tackle is probably what we call a shoot, and it works both against people trying to hit you and against people who are only trying to grapple you. You see it used in MMA and you see it used in BJJ competitions.

You're basically right though, the Gracies do vale tudo (full contact strikes allowed) training as well as no-hitting stuff, and that makes them well-rounded fighters in a way that sport BJJers like myself aren't.

So different striking rules than you allow?

By your implied logic an MMAer would not demonstrate any skill at submission wrestling or boxing. That's not how it works.

But. Any difference in rules slows you down enormously.

Grappling is a slightly different kettle of fish, because generally speaking you aren't going to get a submission against a competent opponent unless you have positional superiority, and that's a prerequisite for hitting them rather than a benefit of doing so. If Mr Hapkido had consistently gotten dominant positions but been unable to make a finish work then I might buy that it was just the rules screwing up his game. That was not what happened though.

 

[Wudang]

What you call a Gracie Tackle is probably what we call a shoot, and it works both against people trying to hit you and against people who are only trying to grapple you. You see it used in MMA and you see it used in BJJ competitions.

You're basically right though, the Gracies do vale tudo (full contact strikes allowed) training as well as no-hitting stuff, and that makes them well-rounded fighters in a way that sport BJJers like myself aren't.



By your implied logic an MMAer would not demonstrate any skill at submission wrestling or boxing. That's not how it works.



Grappling is a slightly different kettle of fish, because generally speaking you aren't going to get a submission against a competent opponent unless you have positional superiority, and that's a prerequisite for hitting them rather than a benefit of doing so. If Mr Hapkido had consistently gotten dominant positions but been unable to make a finish work then I might buy that it was just the rules screwing up his game. That was not what happened though.

Generally correct, with 2 caveats.
1 - no matter how good a grappler you need a certain level of training against someone hitting you. You need to very good or very lucky to be sure that you won't take a hit otherwise you need to get used to taking a hit.
2 - actually 2 I'm probably wrong about. I first trained in Shorinji kempo which is basically JJJ with icing. When I grappled a judo guy I had a lot of trouble. I was able to stop him getting a finish on me but I couldn't get a worthwhile blow in either or a decent grip. Your hapkido guy probably did suck. I know I wasn't half as good then as I thought I was.

 

[T'ai Chi]

Where's Lowe's evidence for his historical revisionism that no Japanese jujitsu people can fight?

 

[Wudang]

By your implied logic an MMAer would not demonstrate any skill at submission wrestling or boxing. That's not how it works.

I wonder if we're miscommunicating. My experience is that sparring with rules I'm not used to, especially if something I'm used to doing is not allowed, really slows me down because I have to think about what I'm doing rather than just reacting.

 

[Jekyll]

What you call a Gracie Tackle is probably what we call a shoot, and it works both against people trying to hit you and against people who are only trying to grapple you. You see it used in MMA and you see it used in BJJ competitions.

That's funny, we call them a bithalfarsedforashoot. I wonder if the two are related?

Seriously though, this is one of the areas that BJJ has benefited immensely from the influences of other arts, early on they didn't have wrestling experience, they didn't have wrestling coaches and they didn't know how to shoot properly. It's something that's been taken and added to the art to round it out further, just like the leg locks from sombo.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

I wonder if we're miscommunicating. My experience is that sparring with rules I'm not used to, especially if something I'm used to doing is not allowed, really slows me down because I have to think about what I'm doing rather than just reacting.

I'm not disagreeing with that. What I thought you were saying is that a change in rules would make you indistinguishable from someone who had never trained at all, and that would have been silly.

That's funny, we call them a bithalfarsedforashoot. I wonder if the two are related?

Seriously though, this is one of the areas that BJJ has benefited immensely from the influences of other arts, early on they didn't have wrestling experience, they didn't have wrestling coaches and they didn't know how to shoot properly. It's something that's been taken and added to the art to round it out further, just like the leg locks from sombo.

That's the problem with these forums, I never know what level of knowledge to assume in another poster. You're absolutely right, of course, I just assumed you weren't knowledgeable enough to make the distinction significant to you so I didn't bother going in to it. Mea culpa.

 

[Jekyll]

That's the problem with these forums, I never know what level of knowledge to assume in another poster. You're absolutely right, of course, I just assumed you weren't knowledgeable enough to make the distinction significant to you so I didn't bother going in to it. Mea culpa.

No problem. I did the same thing myself, I couldn't tell if you were just skimming over the unimportant bits or making a "Helio invented the arm bar!!1" post.