Fatah declaration of its goals, August 2009

[geni]

Israel doesn't want that. Who is going to force it on them?

There are groups in Isreal that do. Due to the rather fractured nature of Isreali politics they have more influence than might be expected from their numbers.

 

[Skeptic]

-I'll start condeming Fatah when Israel can commit to suspending ALL settlement construction.

I'll condemn her rape and murder after it can be proven she ALWAYS did exactly what I want.

Besides, you won't. Long experience shows that, like all other "moderates", if Israel did just that, you will just make even MORE demands from Israel, and declare you will not deal with Palestinian genocidal intentions and acts until Israel fixes THOSE.

The excuses are ready made -- we need to "concentrate on re-starting the peace process", one must not give in to "extreme zionists" who use Palestinian violence as an "excuse" (which in effect means, "will these annoying Jews stop wining about being slaughtered!" and "Jews fighting back, we must stop this immediately!", but I digress), one must give the Palestinians "hope", etc.

But the bottom line is that anything Israel does, apart from more and more withdrawals and concessions, is condemned, and everything the Palestinians do, including random suicide terrorism and calls for Israel's destruction is ignored or excused.

 

[the_eye]

The same method used to destroy Czechoslovakia

Compare them to Nazis, that's a sign of rationality.

-- first get it into indefensible borders by speaking about "peace", then demand the rest / start the war, as per Arafat's "staged plan" of 1974.

Like Israel cares about the peace process? For all their talk of peace, they're as guilty as the Palestinians in regards to ignoring the peace settlements when it's convenient.

Lots of little Chamberlains

You mean like how people continue to support Israel even after the IDF commit War Crimes and ignore the peace process? Like how some sections of the American Public even after the Israelis betray and steal secrets from the Americans?

Also, what's your fascination with the Nazis?

those who naively think that if you give these genocidal terrorists what they want now

That's right, we shouldn't give in to the Israelis.

Also, lots of little Quislings

I prefer the term, anti-fascist.

those who rather like the idea of the genocidal terrorists winning against the Jewish state,

Please, you come off as a nutter with the "genocidal terrorists" nonsense.

 

[funk de fino]

DR -

I'm not saying there's necessarily a solution. But I know the so-called "peace" process is no solution.
There isn't a solution to all our health problems, either; that doesn't mean one should take arsenic to treat cancer under the "but what's YOUR solution?" idea.

Carry on acting like savages and killing each other then. See if we care.

 

[mortimer]

There are groups in Isreal that do. Due to the rather fractured nature of Isreali politics they have more influence than might be expected from their numbers.

Enough influence to intentionally create an Arab majority in Israel by annexing the WB? Highly unlikely.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

Their goal?

"To fight zionism, eliminate the zionist presence, and liberate Palestine".

Their method?

The same method used to destroy Czechoslovakia -- first get it into indefensible borders by speaking about "peace", then demand the rest / start the war, as per Arafat's "staged plan" of 1974.

Their defenders?

Lots of little Chamberlines -- those who naively think that if you give these genocidal terrorists what they want now, they won't ask for more later. These folks are known as "moderates" or "supporters of the peace process".

Also, lots of little Quislings -- those who rather like the idea of the genocidal terrorists winning against the Jewish state, and support them out of inner conviction. These are known as the "anti-zionists".

Sorry to intrude with the truth, and the obvious truth at that, into all the wonderful peace-making and stuff that's going around, but still.

What's your solution?

God Skeptic, your anger with everyone is so unattractive.

 

[geni]

Enough influence to intentionally create an Arab majority in Israel by annexing the WB? Highly unlikely.

They generaly plan to remove the arabs first. Hey it worked in 48.

 

[mortimer]

They generaly plan to remove the arabs first. Hey it worked in 48.

I don't suppose you have any evidence of that plan? If they are already implementing that "plan", it's not working very well, as the WB Arab population continues to increase.

 

[Praktik]

Ahhh WWII, is there anything that can't be shoe-horned into that template?

 

[WildCat]

Ahhh WWII, is there anything that can't be shoe-horned into that template?

"Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it".

You think this is a situation that hasn't played itself out many times throughout history?

 

[geni]

I don't suppose you have any evidence of that plan? If they are already implementing that "plan", it's not working very well, as the WB Arab population continues to increase.

Greater isreal? Thats not exactly secret.

It's not working very well because it is ultimately a minority position and a fair number of it's nominal supporters have other priorities. However due to the fractional nature of isreali politics it's supporters have had influence over the years the most concrete result of which is isreali goverment support for the settler movement over the years.

 

[geni]

"Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it".

You think this is a situation that hasn't played itself out many times throughout history?

WW2 was pretty much unique. In terms of how things normaly play out it's one of the least useful wars to track.

 

[Praktik]

No, I just tire of endless references to Chamberlains, Churchills and Quislings.

I don't accept that the Israeli/Gaza conflict can be fit into that profile, whether its comparisons of Palestinians/Palestian supporters or Israelis/Israel supporters (the comparisons are made with reference to both sides).

If I condemn the characterization of Israeli occupation policies as "nazi-esque" then to remain consistent I must also condemn the same mistake when applied to Palestinians.

 

[Praktik]

WW2 was pretty much unique. In terms of how things normaly play out it's one of the least useful wars to track.

and this

 

[WildCat]

WW2 was pretty much unique. In terms of how things normaly play out it's one of the least useful wars to track.

This is true of course, because the Palestinians aren't even trying to hide their intentions. The Germans never made official documenta available to the world stating their goal was to invade Russia and France and exterminate the Jews. The Palestinians, OTOH, have in fact written down their goal of destroying Israel and exterminating the Jews.

No, I just tire of endless references to Chamberlains, Churchills and Quislings.

I don't accept that the Israeli/Gaza conflict can be fit into that profile, whether its comparisons of Palestinians/Palestian supporters or Israelis/Israel supporters (the comparisons are made with reference to both sides).

If I condemn the characterization of Israeli occupation policies as "nazi-esque" then to remain consistent I must also condemn the same mistake when applied to Palestinians.

What do you think of the Palestinians stated goal of destroying Israel and Hamas' goal of exterminating the Jews? Both of these goals are written down in official documents, and repeatedly stated in state-controlled media. One doesn't have to read between the lines to infer it either, it's quite clear.

What about the Palestinians as currently composed makes you think "these are reasonable people we can deal with"?

 

[Praktik]

What do you think of the Palestinians stated goal of destroying Israel and Hamas' goal of exterminating the Jews? Both of these goals are written down in official documents, and repeatedly stated in state-controlled media. One doesn't have to read between the lines to infer it either, it's quite clear.

What about the Palestinians as currently composed makes you think "these are reasonable people we can deal with"?

What makes you think that I think that? "reason" is a scarce resource in that conflict IMO..

But I'm not going to argue as to how well/how poorly the Palestinians can be described as Nazis.

Its a fool's errand and doesn't get us anywhere, and I've already stated my opposition to those comparisons. I feel strongly that we can discuss this topic without having to invoke the Nazis.

 

[geni]

This is true of course, because the Palestinians aren't even trying to hide their intentions. The Germans never made official documenta available to the world stating their goal was to invade Russia and France and exterminate the Jews. The Palestinians, OTOH, have in fact written down their goal of destroying Israel and exterminating the Jews.

So logical parallels would be the likes of the reconquista some of the conflicts in German East Africa and the Mau Mau Uprising in kenya.

 

[Darth Rotor]

I prefer the term, anti-fascist.

Hi

A "Quisling" was originally a traitor who betrayed people to the fascists. WW II vintage. So no, Quislings don't hold an anti-fascist connotation, though the general term it is reflecting is "traitor" in most cases.

DR

 

[Darth Rotor]

Carry on acting like savages and killing each other then. See if we care.

Invest in popcorn futures.

FWIW,

 

[WildCat]

What makes you think that I think that? "reason" is a scarce resource in that conflict IMO..

But I'm not going to argue as to how well/how poorly the Palestinians can be described as Nazis.

Its a fool's errand and doesn't get us anywhere, and I've already stated my opposition to those comparisons. I feel strongly that we can discuss this topic without having to invoke the Nazis.

The post you quoted doesn't mention Nazis at all. In fact, your response has little to nothing to do with my post which you quoted.

Would you like to try again, this time responding to the actual post? Here it is again:

What do you think of the Palestinians stated goal of destroying Israel and Hamas' goal of exterminating the Jews? Both of these goals are written down in official documents, and repeatedly stated in state-controlled media. One doesn't have to read between the lines to infer it either, it's quite clear.

What about the Palestinians as currently composed makes you think "these are reasonable people we can deal with"?