Fat people in denial

[RandFan]

I never tried to prove a conspiracy. In fact, I never called it a conspiracy. You did. I'm simply pointing out that our culture has evolved to the point where we are conditioned to make unhealthy choices.

Hmmmm......

I'd also add some stats about how much the diet industry rakes in and the obvious synergy between junk food peddlers and the weight loss industry, but I'm too lazy to look them up. The problem is, if people lost weight and kept it off, then the industry wouldn't be selling too many books, and not many people would buy them if they read that they have to change their lives instead of popping a super carb burner pill and exercising 10 minutes a week.

There seems to be some inference to this argument. Why discuss the diet industry and "synergy" with junk food peddlers?

Could you clarify?

 

[zultr]

Kids nowadays got REAL strong thumbs, though!

That's part of the problem. I'm not that old (not yet 40). When I was a kid, we had one car for a family of 7. I took the bus or walked a lot. Now, every member of my family, all of their spouses and all of their children of age own cars. If you wanted to change the channel, you had to actually get up and do it (I watched a lot of crappy tv for no other reason than I didn't want to get up). Our car windows cranked down. Restaurant portions seemed to be about 1/2 of what they are today, and lots of restaurants were locally owned, not chains that served fast, fatty food in huge portions. I played every day on my bike or in a park - those parks are vacant today (I'm sure video games have something to do with that).

When I go to Europe, hardly anyone drives in the major cities - they walk, bike, or take public transportation, which requires some level of activity. Meal portions are tiny. An order of ice cream consists of a single scoop with nothing on it. Soda is not ubiquitous. Again, the only overweight people I see are Americans on vacation.

When I was younger, I ate more calories than I do now, but now I sit at a desk and lead a far more sedentary lifestyle and I weigh a lot more. Bodies are very efficient at expending energy - too efficient for the lives we've built for ourselves.

 

[zultr]

Hmmmm......

There seems to be some inference to this argument. Why discuss the diet industry and "synergy" with junk food peddlers?

Could you clarify?

Conspiracy: 1) An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act. 2) An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.

Synergy: 1) The interaction of two or more agents or forces so that their combined effect is greater than the sum of their individual effects. 2) Cooperative interaction among groups, especially among the acquired subsidiaries or merged parts of a corporation, that creates an enhanced combined effect.

I meant synergy in the context of mutually beneficial outcomes that are not necessarily the result of an explicit agreement. Perhaps the second definition for synergy is to blame for the confusion. I certainly don’t think that the food and diet industries have joined together to form an evil cabal bent on fattening the nation. I do think that the consequences of how our society works provide a disincentive for either industry to change what they are currently doing – because they’re making lots of money at it.

By the way, can you come up with another example of habitual behavior that has a relapse rate of lower than 93%?

 

[zultr]

Coincidentally, the first place on the web I went to after leaving here had this on the topic.

 

[RandFan]

Conspiracy: 1) An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act. 2) An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.

You forgot,

4.) A joining or acting together, as if by sinister design: a conspiracy of wind and tide that devastated coastal areas.

By the way, can you come up with another example of habitual behavior that has a relapse rate of lower than 93%?

Don't know. I could very well be wrong. Is tobacco or drugs abuse only behavior related? If there is a physiological component to drug abuse and addiction to tobacco then don't the similar statistics to weight loss suggest that obesity is much more than simply habit and behavior?

Is it easier for an individual to quit smoking marijuana or lose 100 pounds?

Is it easier to give up television or lose 100 pounds?

Is it easier to give up fishing or lose 100 pounds?

 

[RandFan]

BTW, tobacco executives testified that their products were not addictive. IIRC, they said that smoking is simply a matter of habit and quitting is just a matter of will power. Do you agree?

 

[Tmy]

People quit all the time with nothing more than willpower.

You be amazed how life long smokers are able to quit cold turkey when there doctor tells them they have cancer.

 

[wildflower1]

When I go to Europe, hardly anyone drives in the major cities - they walk, bike, or take public transportation, which requires some level of activity.

Again, the only overweight people I see are Americans on vacation.

When I've traveled to countries in Europe, I've noticed far fewer accommodations for disabled people (that is, things like curb cuts or elevators/escalators providing access to underground transportation). Could this be part of the reason that we see far fewer overweight or disabled people on the streets there? Are there fewer accommodations because fewer people need them? Or could it be that overweight/disabled natives have given up on public mobility due to lack of such accomodations, and that, therefore, the only such people out and about are the hapless American tourists?

 

[Tmy]

I find that alot of foerigners are smaller period. Not a fat thing, they are just tinyer. I think ther rest of the world tends to be malnorished.

 

[RandFan]

People quit all the time with nothing more than willpower.

You be amazed how life long smokers are able to quit cold turkey when there doctor tells them they have cancer.

Some but not all. Even with death staring them in the face many still are unable to quit. Ever see the folks who have thier laranx removed and they draw the smoke in through the hole in their throat?

 

[zultr]

Is it easier for an individual to quit smoking marijuana or lose 100 pounds?

Is it easier to give up television or lose 100 pounds?

Is it easier to give up fishing or lose 100 pounds?

I don't know. I think it depends a lot on the individual. For example, it would be a lot easier for me to quit eating asparagus than napping after work.

BTW, tobacco executives testified that their products were not addictive. IIRC, they said that smoking is simply a matter of habit and quitting is just a matter of will power. Do you agree?

I'm certainly no expert on addiction, but I do know that the subject is becoming increasingly contentious. I think it is very difficult to decide whether something is "physically" addictive rather than "psychologically" addictive. If you have a strong enough emotional tie to something, it doesn't really matter about the substance. Personally, I went through quite a few cans of Skoal. As much as I liked the nicotine buzz, I was addicted to the routine (usually studying late at night or after a couple of drinks). It took years to completely quit, with many relapses coming long after any physical need could have been present (usually if I ended up working late at night or having a drink). I've scoured my trash cans for old lumps of tobacco and actually bummed cigarettes from people to break them open and shove the tobacco under my lip. Was I addicted? I don't know. I do know that when I quit and it stuck, it was because I decided, after pretending a few times, that I no longer wanted to do it.

 

[Nasarius]

I think it is very difficult to decide whether something is "physically" addictive rather than "psychologically" addictive.

*sigh*
No, no it's not. Physical addiction involves physical withdrawal symptoms. You don't start sweating and shaking or getting headaches if you stop watching TV.

 

[zultr]

When I've traveled to countries in Europe, I've noticed far fewer accommodations for disabled people (that is, things like curb cuts or elevators/escalators providing access to underground transportation)... Or could it be that overweight/disabled natives have given up on public mobility due to lack of such accomodations, and that, therefore, the only such people out and about are the hapless American tourists?

Lack of accommodations may be why you don't see as many of the blind or those in wheelchairs. However, if you see fat Americans getting around, then the lack of accommodations shouldn't have too much impact on those who need to get around there everyday.

I find that alot of foerigners are smaller period. Not a fat thing, they are just tinyer. I think ther rest of the world tends to be malnorished.

Europeans are malnourished? I mean maybe in 1946, but now? My nephew in Italy is huge.

 

[zultr]

*sigh*
No, no it's not. Physical addiction involves physical withdrawal symptoms. You don't start sweating and shaking or getting headaches if you stop watching TV.

You're right. But why do so many relapse after the physical effects of the substance have already been purged from their body? What about the endorphins produced when eating comfort food? Does that make a twinkie physically addictive? Couldn't you have such an emotional tie to watching tv that you may in fact exhibit symptoms similar to what you described?

Edited for clarity.

 

[RandFan]

I don't know. I think it depends a lot on the individual. For example, it would be a lot easier for me to quit eating asparagus than napping after work.

I'm certainly no expert on addiction, but I do know that the subject is becoming increasingly contentious. I think it is very difficult to decide whether something is "physically" addictive rather than "psychologically" addictive. If you have a strong enough emotional tie to something, it doesn't really matter about the substance. Personally, I went through quite a few cans of Skoal. As much as I liked the nicotine buzz, I was addicted to the routine (usually studying late at night or after a couple of drinks). It took years to completely quit, with many relapses coming long after any physical need could have been present (usually if I ended up working late at night or having a drink). I've scoured my trash cans for old lumps of tobacco and actually bummed cigarettes from people to break them open and shove the tobacco under my lip. Was I addicted? I don't know. I do know that when I quit and it stuck, it was because I decided, after pretending a few times, that I no longer wanted to do it.

It doesn't really answer the question. What are the statistics for people quiting heroin, smoking, any behavior? If giving up golfing on saturdays is statistically easier than smoking then can't we come to a conclusion as to the merits of will power versus phisological addiction?

Is your experience the same as everyones? Isn't your experience anecdotal? Isn't it rational to accept science over anecdotal evidence? Do you have any evidence that shows that obesity is no different than any other "habit"? Why do people who have allot of will power in other parts of their lives fail at gambiling or smoking or eating?

Your thesis leaves so many questions unanswered, do you really know what you are talking about or are you simply making gueses based on your intuition and lifes experiences?

 

[peptoabysmal]

Coincidentally, the first place on the web I went to after leaving here had this on the topic.

Suburban, white men typically weighed about 10 pounds more than men who lived in dense urban areas with shops and services, according to the study, which will be presented Thursday at a national obesity conference in Virginia.

The study was paid for by $4 million in grants from the Georgia Department of Transportation, Georgia Regional Transportation Authority and the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The Atlanta Regional Commission and the Environmental Protection Agency also participated.

LMAO! 4 million dollars to find out that Suburban white men weigh more than men from urban areas and come to the conclusion that driving is the cause. I suppose that having the income to afford Suburban living doesn't mean that you won't have more food around the house, eh?

 

[Kerberos]

LMAO! 4 million dollars to find out that Suburban white men weigh more than men from urban areas and come to the conclusion that driving is the cause. I suppose that having the income to afford Suburban living doesn't mean that you won't have more food around the house, eh?

Considering that there is IIRC an inverse correlation, between income and weight, I dare say that that's not the explanation.

Edited to add: I did a quick search, and according to this study 31,1% of women and 35% of men with an income less than 131% of the poverty level are obese, while the same is true for only 18,7% of women and 22,5% of the men among those with income over 350% of the poverty level.

 

[Ion]

Below is my personal take on this subject:
....................................................................

.) I side with the presence of a lack of personal responsability, in regards to many fat people that I observe in the U.S.;

.) I am from Europe, East then West;

.) for me, in U.S., daily exercising as a priority is grounded in an upbringing instilled in Europe;

.) like in the motto 'Mens Sana in Corpore Sano' coined by Juvenal around 120 A.D., I believe in the good of a balance between decent fitnesses for the brain and the body;

.) in my case, this means choosing for years the pursuit of a scientific education, learning many languages, and exercising in a sport -outside a full time work- for about 15 hours per week, then competing;

.) this choice takes in my mind precedence over activities like watching TV;
(the last time when I watched TV, it was in 2000 during the Sydney Olympics)

.) physically I am 6 feet tall, I weigh around 157 pounds and I benchpress about twice my body weight -even though benchpressing is secondary in my sport-.

 

[RandFan]

physically I am 6 feet tall, I weigh around 157 pounds and I benchpress about twice my body weight -even though benchpressing is secondary in my sport-.

And of course you are intolerant of people who don't think and act as you do.

 

[zultr]

It doesn't really answer the question.

I didn’t know I was trying to answer the question. I assumed writing “I don't know. I think it depends a lot on the individual,” and “I'm certainly no expert on addiction” would have tipped you off on this point.

What are the statistics for people quiting heroin, smoking, any behavior?

I don’t feel compelled to research stats for all behaviors for your edification, but you already know the answer to the smoking question. After you stated that “95% of people who quit smoking don't start again,” I posted that it is in fact slightly more than 93%. I would bet those results fall within their respective margins for error, making the difficulty of each act indistinguishable, rendering your initial comment wrong. You do rely on science rather than personal guesses for your analysis, don’t you?

If giving up golfing on saturdays is statistically easier than smoking then can't we come to a conclusion as to the merits of will power versus phisological addiction?

Do you know for a fact that giving up golfing on Saturdays is statistically easier for everyone to give up than smoking? If not, then why are you stating it as fact? Perhaps quitting golf would be easier for you personally, but wouldn’t that make “your experience anecdotal?” After all, “isn't it rational to accept science over anecdotal evidence?” For you, lifestyle changes that lead to weight loss are difficult for you to bear; in fact, they make you “nervous and miserable to be with.” What of an individual who is completely obsessed with golf and couldn’t give a rats ass about smoking or eating? Is their experience irrelevant because you don’t share their perception or that they constitute a statistical minority?

Why do people who have allot of will power in other parts of their lives fail at gambiling or smoking or eating?

Are those the only things that people fail at, or are they what you perceive to be the most common? Some people fail at keeping their garages clean while gambling, smoking, and eating pose no challenge at all. I’m sure that statistics indicate that certain behaviors that are more difficult to kick than others, but since there are so many exceptions and variations to the rule, it seems to depend on the individual.

Your thesis leaves so many questions unanswered, do you really know what you are talking about or are you simply making gueses based on your intuition and lifes experiences?

I believe I am raising some logical questions while not necessarily knowing the answer. I’m also pointing out that science at this point may not have all the answers either (it does happen, believe it or not). Obesity is a new phenomenon in human history and its study is in its infancy. I haven’t seen any scientific studies that specifically address the points I am raising (if you find them, I’m willing to be enlightened), and it is perfectly reasonable that such points be considered; to do so is far more reasonable than latching on to the first study that says what you’d like to hear.

You keep mentioning science (without citing any) to support your claim, but I'm not sure what your claim is. You stated earlier that you don’t want to be considered “disabled.” Well, you seem to be arguing both sides of the coin. Is obesity something beyond one’s control that qualifies for a disease or disability, or something else?