Fat Logic

[theprestige]

Well, good for you, but this is an anecdote, not evidence.

I'm not presenting evidence, I'm trying to reconcile my actual experience with the theory that claims that I should have had a different experience.

Have you considered the possibility that you're the outlier? It's more plausible to me that the person who easily loses weight is the exception, not the rule.

I have considered that I'm the outlier. But this would mean that my personal trainer got extremely lucky when he recommended the simple solution after having known me for ten minutes and done nothing more than measure my body fat percentage. It would mean that somehow, by accident, I stumbled upon exactly the complex weight loss program that matched my body's complex needs, and by pure chance it happened to seem simple to me.

Also, I said my method was simple. I never said it was easy. In fact, it's been damn hard. For years--more than I care to admit--it was hard just to get up the motivation to do the simple things. And actually doing the simple things is also hard.

It's not easy to break old habits. It's not easy to give up six slices of buttered toast for an afternoon snack every day. It's not easy to really break a sweat for thirty minutes every day. It's not easy to run faster, when your old pace doesn't do the job anymore. It's not easy to keep adding more weight to the barbells every week.

It's not easy, but it is simple. Put it another way: Diet and exercise isn't complicated, but motivation is hard.

So mostly I've considered the possibility that I'm the outlier when it comes to weight loss motivation. Consider each of my years individually, and this year has been a motivational outlier for me. My hope--my goal--is that over the rest of my life it will stop being an outlier and become the new normal.

But if it isn't? If I lose my motivation and regain my lost weight? If that were to happen, I'd call it a problem of the complexity of human desire, not a problem of the complexity of human weight loss.

If it's so easy, why are there all these diet books? Why is everybody searching for the perfect diet or pill to burn the weight off? You're taking a specific case (yours) and using it to generalize about the rest of society, which I believe is a logical fallacy.

You're conflating 'easy' with 'simple'.

I haven't examined the question, but I suspect the reason for all the 'easy' weight loss solutions is that everybody wants to lose weight but nobody wants to do hard work. It's a problem of human motivation, not human weight loss.

Chopping wood is not complicated, but it is hard work. You want to chop wood by hand, there's no pill or trick to get it done. Only sweat and ache and blisters--until you get good at it. Then it stops being such hard work, until you start thinking about chopping more wood in the same period, or chopping wood for a longer period.

I apparently can't become addicted to nicotine. During my youth, I started smoking and stopped dozens of times. I could buy a pack or two, smoke them all, and then not touch another cigarette for three months. What if, based upon this, I decided that quitting smoking was really no big deal, and the people who really had issues with quitting were "outliers"? Wouldn't that be silly?

It would be silly if you claimed it would be equally easy for everyone to find the same motivation.

It would not be silly if you claimed that the mechanism and outcomes of quitting smoking were equally simple for anyone motivated to quit.

Here we go again. So, motivation is all you need? Where does the motivation come from? Do you have a simple and easy way to get motivated? Because if you do, you're going to be rich beyond your wildest dreams.

There's a huge difference between how weight loss works for those that are motivated to do it, and how motivation works for those who are not motivated. You're conflating the two. I'm separating them so that I can talk about the former without confusing you into thinking I'm talking about the latter.

I can't lose weight because weight loss is a complex problem involving inscrutable metabolic processes that I can't understand, control, or compensate for? Not in my personal experience.

I can't lose weight because my motivation is a complex and inscrutable thing that I can't understand, control, or compensate for? Yes, in my personal experience.

How is that "fat logic"? Let's ignore the fact that an anecdote is being used as evidence, which is a fallacy in the first place. As a skeptic, why wouldn't you want to follow up to see if the weight stayed off? Especially since "yo-yo dieting" is a known phenomenon.

I'm not using my anecdote as evidence. I'm trying to square my actual experience with the theory that says I should have experienced something else. Since my experience is at odds with the theory, I have provisionally concluded that the theory is at best incomplete, and at worst, utterly useless to me.

And since the experiment is happening in real time, I can only test your yo-yo hypothesis at the rate of one day per day. However, I do seem to have avoided the main pitfalls associated with yo-yo weight control described here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yo-yo_effect

So I remain hopeful that if I retain my current level of motivation, and continue the simple (but not easy) program I'm on, the only weight gain I see over the next couple years will be the addition of more lean muscle mass. But we'll see.

What's unfalsifiable is the notion that all you need to do to lose weight is just decide to do it. This is thinking similar to that found in What the Bleep Do We Know? and The Secret.

A: "Anyone can lose weight by eating less, exercising, and getting motivated."
B: "Well, I ate less and exercised, and I was very motivated, and I still didn't lose weight."
A: "You weren't really motivated. Or you weren't motivated enough. You just have to try harder."

See? Unfalsifiable.

Your scenario is unfalsifiable because you haven't included any quantification.

Leave motivation aside for a moment. Measure eating, exercise, and weight over time. Is there a correlation there? Are there variations on the theme that lead to variations in outcome? What are those variations? Can they be adjusted or mitigated?

 

[Axiom_Blade]

What about the person who loses weight by decreasing the amount of food they eat and increasing the amount of calories they burn. Would you consider them the exception or the rule?

They're the rule, but that's not what we're talking about here. AFAIK, no one is disagreeing that eating less and exercising will lose weight.

 

[theprestige]

The take-away here is that it WASN'T as simple as "eating less". You substantially changed the type of food you were consuming, and reduced your carbohydrate intake by a considerable amount.

You're absurdly overestimating the complexity here.

It took me about five minutes with the point-scoring system to figure out that the biggest change would come from eating less carbs specifically.

It took me about a day and a half to sketch out a viable framework for meals without bread in them. It took me about a week to really fill out that framework with good meals. None of this was especially complicated. The mental challenge of putting all this together was trivial.

You make it sound like I'm some sort of Batman-tier superhero, who has lost weight only because of my exceptional capacity to understand and solve the most complicated problems that confront humanity.

ETA: Okay, fine. "Eat less" is too simple. The Modern American lacks the mental capacity to work out the details of implementing such a simple instruction. So how about, "eat less bread, eat more vegetables"? Still too simple? Still not enough detail there for a person of sound mind to sit down and figure out a meal plan that works for them? How complex do we have to get, before we end up with something that people can actually apply to their daily lives?

 

[theprestige]

They're the rule, but that's not what we're talking about here. AFAIK, no one is disagreeing that eating less and exercising will lose weight.

And yet when I described having exactly that experience, you accused me of using anecdotes as evidence; disputed the simplicity of the premise "that eating less and exercising will lose weight"; and suggested that the real reason for my weight loss was that I'm some kind of unspecified outlier, rather than because of the simple premise that "as far as you know" no one is disagreeing with.

Eating less and exercising will lose weight? No one is disagreeing with this? Well, I'm not disagreeing with it! The rest of y'all? It's not so clear. Maybe you and Emily's Cat should discuss among yourselves for a while. Get your stories straight. Find your areas of common ground and your areas of dispute. Resolve those disputes. Meanwhile, I'll be over here, definitely not disagreeing "that eating less and exercising will lose weight".

 

[Axiom_Blade]

And yet when I described having exactly that experience, you accused me of using anecdotes as evidence; disputed the simplicity of the premise "that eating less and exercising will lose weight; and suggested that the real reason for my weight loss was that I'm some kind of unspecified outlier, rather than because of the simple premise that "as far as you know" no one is disagreeing with.

The fact that you lost weight by eating less and exercising would not make you an outlier. But, perhaps, being easily motivated to do these things would. You agree that motivation is difficult, at least for most people, so I'm not really sure what we're disagreeing about here. The question is: What made you motivated? Why was your experience different than many other people's? (For one thing, you did mention that you had a personal trainer. Many dieters don't have that.)

 

[The Atheist]

Curious the speed with which threads on the subject of obesity garner so many posts.

Well, not really.

I think the comparisons to drug addiction are fairly apt.

I agree entirely and have said so many times.

It's not a great mystery. Thanks to technology, the population is much less physically active today (you don't even have to get up to change the TV channel anymore). Add to that the heavily promoted and readily available delicious high energy foods and the the world is just dying to become obese.

Yes, that's the obvious common-sense answer, but I like to see a little more than intuition, which is why I asked the question.

I doubt changing the channel makes a lot of difference, and in the '70s, NZ only had one TV channel. My father and his friends did no exercise and didn't get fat despite eating fish & chips cooked in lard at least once a week.

Fat-shaming is bad (not including things that get called "fat-shaming" that aren't actually shaming). And they eat (or at one point ate) too much. Both are true.

Sure it's bad. So is diabetes.

Or their environments have.

Entirely possible, but I'm not convinced that's the problem either.

What makes you think shaming people is helpful?

Where did I say it was helpful?

And how do you propose we go about carrying out these shamings that you seem to think are for the good of society?

Two strawmen in two sentences, you're batting 1000!

Where did I suggest fat-shaming benefits society?

If it's not my fat...why should I care?

Again, this is something I've covered dozens of times - I couldn't care if people have a BMI of 100. That's their business and it doesn't faze me. I'm not even repulsed by grossly obese, I don't care at all. I will definitely have a lower opinion of them as employees and won't hire them, but that's their problem, not mine.

The only part of the entire fat industry that grinds my gears is the enormous resources being expended on stopping grossly obese people dying.

That makes my tax bill bigger, means less investment in healthcare outside of obesity and longer waiting lists for operations because resources are diverted to gastric banding and diabetes-related surgery.

 

[theprestige]

The fact that you lost weight by eating less and exercising would not make you an outlier. But, perhaps, being easily motivated to do these things would.

I'm not easily motivated. If I were, I would have lost all this weight years ago, or never gained it in the first place. Motivation is a huge problem for me in all areas of my life.

You agree that motivation is difficult, at least for most people, so I'm not really sure what we're disagreeing about here.

I think our disagreement may be simply that I am making a distinction between problems of motivation and problems of complexity in methods and mechanisms. So I am arguing that the methods and mechanisms of weight loss are rather simple, and can be accurately summed up in the maxim, "eat less and exercise more". However, I make this argument independently of the problem of motivation, which I consider separately from the problem of methods and mechanisms.

You seem to be considering the problem of motivation as one of the problems of methods and mechanisms. So our disagreement may just be a difference in classification, rather than any serious dispute about underlying principles or general rules. I'm okay with that. If you were to say that the main problem with weight loss isn't the complexity of the methods and mechanisms, but the complexity of human motivation, I would wholeheartedly agree.

The question is: What made you motivated? Why was your experience different than many other people's? (For one thing, you did mention that you had a personal trainer. Many dieters don't have that.)

I have no idea what made me motivated. I had been dissatisfied with my weight for years. This year, something changed. If I could bottle that change, I'd make a fortune. But I can't, so instead I'm just resolved to ride it out as long as it lasts, and hope that by making a daily habit of it, it'll persist through the ebb and flow of my motivation in coming years.

I have no idea why my experience is different from other people's. I suspect that for most people, the main issue is motivation, and the other issue is looking for a solution that is simple and easy, rather than committing to the solution is simple but hard.

The trainer helped with motivation, but the trainer came after the motivation. My employer has always offered trainer reimbursement as a perk. This year, I finally took advantage of that.

The lesson I learned from this is that it's important to make use of the resources available. There's lots of good information online, for people who are motivated to lose weight but aren't sure how to adjust their diet and exercise routine. Even the wikipedia article on yo-yo dieting gives a pretty clear picture of the pitfalls to avoid. If you're motivated to lose weight, you'll find the resources.

 

[Modified]

If you can hold your breath, shouldn't you be able to override the biological drive to breathe?

Sure, as long as I'm conscious. Some people can't hold out to the point of unconsciousness, but many can, especially if they hyperventilate first.

 

[cosmicaug]

Why do you think it wouldn't make people feel full? The amount of sugar?

The low volume and lack of fiber, plus the high amount of raw sugar (which digests quickly and causes a blood sugar spike).

On the other hand, there are old studies looking at people being fed bland liquid meals ad libitum (think Soylent before Soylent was invented), which should not be filling (if anything, it should be deeply unsatisfying), and it resulted in reduced Calorie consumption (with concomitant weight loss).

 

[cosmicaug]

Some problems really do have simple solutions.
"I don't want to be fat." - Move more, eat less.
"I don't want to be poor." - Earn more, spend less.
"I don't want to be an alcoholic." - Stop drinking.

The difficulty arises when the answers don't fit my idea of what constitutes an enjoyable life. I want to eat too much and stay thin. I want to spend all my money and not be broke. I want to drink constantly without ill effects.

It really is as simple as eat fewer Calories but, at the same time, it is quite complicated.

For instance, after talking with a doctor about weight loss the doctor offering a minimal monetary reward (something like a dollar) for successful weight loss apparently makes a difference toward the achievement of weight loss goals. This is not easily justified as rational. The amount of effort involved certainly does not justify the dollar. The lecture the patients would be getting on the potential health problems involves health penalties which are orders of magnitudes worse than the minimal monetary reward and it's hard to believe that the minimal monetary reward takes patients over the edge relatively consistently and the minimal monetary reward certainly should not rationally change anything about the enjoyment of food.

 

[casebro]

More like creating an unfalsifiable situation for your beliefs by discouraging and discounting others. If that's what he was doing.

No. The intent of my question was are you practicing what you're preaching, or lecturing from a high horse of natural slimness. How much weight has your logic lost FOR YOU? Or is it all horse **** and gun smoke as an intellectual exercise?

 

[Axiom_Blade]

My father and his friends did no exercise and didn't get fat despite eating fish & chips cooked in lard at least once a week.

This reminds me of the amazing metabolism I had all throughout high school and college. I mean, I could eat big platefuls of greasy sausage, stacks of eggs, and waffles soaking in syrup and be thin as a rail. My friends often quite enviously commented upon my "incredible metabolism." I didn't exercise, either! Oh yeah, I also rode my bike everywhere, because I didn't own a car.

When I hit middle age, though, my amazing metabolism disappeared, and I suddenly started packing on the pounds. People who hit middle age often experience this. I wistfully recalled the days when I could eat anything I wanted with zero consequences. Oh yeah, this was also around the time when I moved to an area that was very hilly and not bike friendly, so I started taking the bus everywhere. And I got an office job where I sat in front of a computer all day. And the office kitchen was always well-stocked with sugary cereal.

Since then, my weight has stabilized at something that is higher than what it was in college, but well below obese. I suddenly stopped gaining weight. LIKE MAGIC. WTF, right? Oh yeah, this happened around the time I became a vegetarian.

Again, this is something I've covered dozens of times - I couldn't care if people have a BMI of 100. That's their business and it doesn't faze me. I'm not even repulsed by grossly obese, I don't care at all. I will definitely have a lower opinion of them as employees and won't hire them, but that's their problem, not mine.

So, you have nothing against fat people, you just consciously discriminate against them. Gotcha.

 

[theprestige]

No. The intent of my question was are you practicing what you're preaching, or lecturing from a high horse of natural slimness. How much weight has your logic lost FOR YOU? Or is it all horse **** and gun smoke as an intellectual exercise?

Good thing intent isn't magic, then, or I might take yours personally, and decide I don't owe you any followup at all.

As it is, I'm merely waiting for your answer to my follow-up questions.

 

[Modified]

On the other hand, there are old studies looking at people being fed bland liquid meals ad libitum (think Soylent before Soylent was invented), which should not be filling (if anything, it should be deeply unsatisfying), and it resulted in reduced Calorie consumption (with concomitant weight loss).

While they were on that diet or afterward? The first wouldn't surprise me. Even hungry people don't want to eat bland food.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Sorry, this thread topic has come up again and again always with the same uninformed arguments people just need to quit putting food in their mouths. Your comment, "evolution has made us efficient at storing calories", I never said that. And, "most of humanity is "weak-willed", said it's just a matter of will power. Claiming lack of it was common ignores the real causes of obesity.

.......................

Why is that an uniformed argument..

Are you denying that reduced caloric intake and/or exercise that results in a caloric deficit is the only way to experience weight loss?

How difficult the process may be, depending on the individual, is determined by any number of factors, but the bottom line of CICO remains..

 

[The Atheist]

This reminds me of the amazing metabolism I had all throughout high school and college.

Doesn't answer the question, though.

So, you have nothing against fat people, you just consciously discriminate against them. Gotcha.

Absolutely!

But based on science and reality.

Lots of my guys have to work in confined spaces at times. Enormous people aren't too good at that. Alas, I also consciously discriminate against very tall people on the same basis.

Further than that, there is an enormous amount of hard data to show that chronically obese people take far more sick leave than people who aren't obese. Since that money comes straight out of my pocket, I'm not cool with paying sick leave I have no need to pay for and it's a guaranteed way of spending less money. Employers who don't follow that simple rule are morons in my opinion.

I was going to post links to the science but there are so many you can take your pick from this vast search on the subject.

https://www.google.com/search?q=chr...utf-8#q=chronically+obese+take+more+sick+days

 

[Skeptical Greg]

................................

If it's so easy, why are there all these diet books? Why is everybody searching for the perfect diet or pill to burn the weight off?

No one has said it is easy, at least not for everyone...

The reasons most fad diets fail, is because people want a magic bullet that doesn't inconvenience them in any way..

They usually include an eating plan that is unsustainable over the long term, because people become bored with it, in a society where eating has become a form of recreation..

 

[Meed]

Sure it's bad.

If you agree that's bad, then I misunderstood your post.

Two strawmen in two sentences, you're batting 1000!

Where did I suggest fat-shaming benefits society?

See above. My apologies.

 

[cosmicaug]

While they were on that diet or afterward? The first wouldn't surprise me. Even hungry people don't want to eat bland food.

While. I have no idea what happened afterward but I can guess. The point was to refer to one of many complications (hedonic factor).

 

[cosmicaug]

Anyway... Yes, it's important to take in fewer calories than you burn if you want to lose weight. Yes, exercise burns calories. But not all calories are created equal. Not all of them process the same.

It's long, but it's worth a read:
What If It's All Been a Big Fat Lie?

I'd recommend such writing from Taubes to be taken with a grain of salt (you know, because salt is non-caloric).