Fat gene

[Eos of the Eons]

Hey kids, stop throwing mud around...yer making this place all dirty!

 

[RSLancastr]

The forum should note irrational aggression when confronted is a common trait among addicts.

"The forum should note?"

For the record, I did discover you were a food addict when you posted an example of your daily diet. If I remember correctly, you then asked "Now, is that what you think an obese person would eat?".

Which, as you should know, was in response to the thread originator (Genghis, in one of his first threads), who seemed to be of the opinion that obese people sit down and eat entire pizzas, or entire buckets of chicken, in one sitting. I was showing him that he was wrong, that while I eat far too much, I eat far less than what he was describing. This was before he had made himself known as a troll, or I wouldn't have bothered trying to explain.

Your inability to rationally examine the scale of your problem is another hallmark of addiction. Much like the alcoholic whom doesn't see a problem with having a few beers every night, meaning a twelve pack of course.

Once again, you set up the same strawman. I never said, nor implied, any of that. But nice try.

You haven't read any of the studies, so you are not qualified to comment on what they contain.

True. Hey, you finally got one of your mind-reading attempts correct! That's what, one out of ten or so?

Read this if you are interested in the reality of genetics and obesity:

It doesn't load, I will try again later (although I believe you showed it to me in another thread). And what makes this any more reliable than what you think I have read? Or is it only because you agree with it?

The last person who said that thinks astrology is science, so you are in poor company for questioning my credentials.

Telling you that you are not sounding like a scientist is "questioning your credentials?" Then again, I forgot how tender your feelings are on that point. I really have no opinion whether you are one or not.

It's clear from your posts you feel genetics play a signifigant role in your inability to lose weight. Anyone can scroll back and read that.

If "anyone" can do that, why don't you take a second and quote even ONE thing I've said which indicates that? Because I haven't, and you know it. Yet another fun example of trying to speak for me. It isn't working.

Then why do you persist in compulsive self-destructive behavior?

Because, as I believe I have said before, my eating is mostly psychological/emotional/mental/whatever. Depression. Downward spiral, all that crap. Yes, I am responsible for it, and I am responsible for getting myself out of it.

I've said many times now its not hard to make first step, like cut out sugar drinks from your diet. You drink more calories per day then I eat in any of my meals!

Again, you are making assumptions, but at least this one is based on something I actually said. However, my drinking habits have changed somewhat since I posted those "average days" a few months back. I drink far fewer sugared drinks now, and when I do, they are non-caffeinated.

If you can't do that the only logical conclusion is that you are either an addict or suicidal (or maybe both).

I have never said otherwise.

 

[Earthborn]

Your inability to rationally examine the scale of your problem is another hallmark of addiction. Much like the alcoholic whom doesn't see a problem with having a few beers every night, meaning a twelve pack of course.

You now see over-eating as an addiction? I think we are making progress.

You do realize that not all people are equally likely to become addicted and that the difference lies most likely in a genetic predisposition?

You haven't read any of the studies, so you are not qualified to comment on what they contain. Reading articles written by journalists eager to sell papers to obese junk-food addicts like yourself results in junk-science conclusions.
Read this if you are interested in the reality of genetics and obesity:
Don't Buy the 'Fat Gene' Myth

You have now dimished the crediblity of your own source: it is from a journalist, eager to sell papers.

I think you would do better citing an expert in human metabolism. If you can find one that supports your view...

 

[EvilYeti]

You now see over-eating as an addiction? I think we are making progress.

Ha. You must not have read my addiction threads.

You do realize that not all people are equally likely to become addicted and that the difference lies most likely in a genetic predisposition?You have now dimished the crediblity of your own source: it is from a journalist, eager to sell papers.

More mythology. Very little is known regarding the role of genetics play in human behavior. On the other hand much is known regarding the role of human behavior and weight gain.

Fumentko is a skeptic first and a journalist second, most of what he writes is critical of other journalists. What he says is in line with the research, I know as I've read it. Have you?

I think you would do better citing an expert in human metabolism. If you can find one that supports your view...

Funny. Point me to an expert in human metabolism that says obese people don't overeat. As I, Eos and RSL even have pointed out, metabolism doesn't have a hell of a lot to do with this. Fat people just eat way too much food. If I ate as much as RSL and didn't exercise, I would be morbidly obese as well. Genetics and metabolism have nothing to do with it.

I know you have some personal issues regarding this topic, might I suggest putting some of the energy you spend criticizing me exercising instead? You could even get nice and thin for TAM2 then rub my face in it.

Wouldn't that feel good?

 

[Earthborn]

More mythology. Very little is known regarding the role of genetics play in human behavior.

Irrelevant. While it is true that little is known about the exact mechanisms, this does not mean it can't be known that genetics and early childhood experiences have an important influence. For instance, the mechanisms for left-handedness (or right-handedness) are not well understood, but that does not mean that there isn't any proof that it isn't innate.

Fumentko is a skeptic first and a journalist second, most of what he writes is critical of other journalists.

So? That does not make what he writes more true or a more accurate reflection of the current state of research.

What he says is in line with the research, I know as I've read it. Have you?

No, I haven't. Maybe you should point to some research that shows he or you are right.

Point me to an expert in human metabolism that says obese people don't overeat.

I won't, because such an expert doesn't exist. It isn't the point at all.

The point is that an expert in human metabolism will agree that obese people are not the only ones who overeat. A lot more people do that, but those that are the most sensitive to obesity are the ones who get the fattest.

Fat people just eat way too much food.

But they are not the only ones who do! Pretty much everyone in the Western world does!

If I ate as much as RSL and didn't exercise, I would be morbidly obese as well.

No, you wouldn't. Unless you have the same predisposition to obesity.

And suppose you do manage to eat as much as he does, and exercise as little and gain the same amount of weight... Do you honestly think you could lose it just as quickly as you gained by going back to your old eating and exercizing habits? Could you even go back?

I know you have some personal issues regarding this topic

I have no personal issues regarding this topic.

You could even get nice and thin for TAM2 then rub my face in it.

You mean fly halfway across the globe, just to show you that after a lot of exercize I got so strong that I can win armwrestling you, while at the same time weighing roughly the same as I did before?

Wouldn't that feel good?

Getting thin will leave me ill-prepared for the winter, and flying to Vegas will bust my finances, so no.

 

[Terry]

EvilYetiii said (I'm paraphrasing) ... eat as much as RSL => weigh as much
Originally posted by Earthborn
No, you wouldn't. Unless you have the same predisposition to obesity.

If that is true, then my claim that weight control is literally an input vs output energy balance would seem to be incorrect. Please could you point me to a study which supports this? The only physiology book I have (sorry, I'm an engineer) doesn't mention anything like this.

--Terry.

 

[Earthborn]

Sure, Terry. Knock yourself out:
CDC on Obesity

 

[Eos of the Eons]

A relatively small proportion of obesity in the population can be explained by mutations in single genes. However, significant understanding of how fat stores are regulated has been gained from studying the biology and clinical presentations of these rare individuals and families and the animal models of these conditions.

Yep, heard of hypothyroidism and stuff. These and other folks definitely can blame their fat on more than eating.

Then you see these folks who eat tons and tons of food (seems like) and they are scrawny (I always see that they are usually men who are quite active, and when their activity level is down they do start putton on some padding).

We have to realize our metabolism slows as we get older, but our appetite doesn't change on its own to compensate. I see tons of guys who were able to eat whatever they wanted in their twenties get padding within their thirties.

I know a fat kid that eats tons and never exercises. His parents are idiots though too, and feed him tons of crap (like 3 pizza pops for lunch plus tons of other junk).


Our appetite is under our control if we are lucky. It seems some folks have a huge appetite, and I did when I went on this one type of medication. I was darn well starving all the time, and ate way more than usual. I have slimmed down some after that fiasco, but I'm sure many of the fat cells are hanging around waiting for me to fill them up.

Did you know that once you have a fat cell it doesn't go away. They just grow or shrink, or bust out into two if it gets overly filled. lipase...damn things are impossible to destroy by dieting.

So if you gain the weight, then those cells are only happy to keep telling you to eat more if they are getting low on fuel? I don't know, but it sure seems like they fill up fast when I go crazy on the junk. At least my appetite is normal now, and I don't eat too much. That much I am grateful for.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

A relatively small proportion of obesity in the population can be explained by mutations in single genes. However, significant understanding of how fat stores are regulated has been gained from studying the biology and clinical presentations of these rare individuals and families and the animal models of these conditions.

Yep, heard of hypothyroidism and stuff. These and other folks definitely can blame their fat on more than eating.

Then you see these folks who eat tons and tons of food (seems like) and they are scrawny (I always see that they are usually men who are quite active, and when their activity level is down they do start putton on some padding).

We have to realize our metabolism slows as we get older, but our appetite doesn't change on its own to compensate. I see tons of guys who were able to eat whatever they wanted in their twenties get padding within their thirties.

I know a fat kid that eats tons and never exercises. His parents are idiots though too, and feed him tons of crap (like 3 pizza pops for lunch plus tons of other junk).


Our appetite is under our control if we are lucky. It seems some folks have a huge appetite, and I did when I went on this one type of medication. I was darn well starving all the time, and ate way more than usual. I have slimmed down some after that fiasco, but I'm sure many of the fat cells are hanging around waiting for me to fill them up.

Did you know that once you have a fat cell it doesn't go away. They just grow or shrink, or bust out into two if it gets overly filled. lipase...damn things are impossible to destroy by dieting.

So if you gain the weight, then those cells are only happy to keep telling you to eat more if they are getting low on fuel? I don't know, but it sure seems like they fill up fast when I go crazy on the junk. At least my appetite is normal now, and I don't eat too much. That much I am grateful for.

 

[Earthborn]

Yep, heard of hypothyroidism and stuff. These and other folks definitely can blame their fat on more than eating.

True, but I hope you have noticed that the CDC site doesn't only talk about them when it speaks of genetic influences to obesity. The fact that someone hasn't a single gene almost solely responsible doesn't mean that his/her genes don't have an influence.

I always see that they are usually men who are quite active, and when their activity level is down they do start putton on some padding

But they usually don't become morbidly obese, do they? I mean in the 400 pound range.

That there is a very strong correlation between how much someone eats and how much someone moves is not in dispute, as it is very obviously true. I even read about a study once that found a correlation between how much someone gesticulates and weight. People who tend to gesticulate very much are generally thinner: even such small movements can make a measurable difference in how much energy someone uses.

We have to realize our metabolism slows as we get older, but our appetite doesn't change on its own to compensate. I see tons of guys who were able to eat whatever they wanted in their twenties get padding within their thirties.

This is also obviously true.

I know a fat kid that eats tons and never exercises. His parents are idiots though too, and feed him tons of crap (like 3 pizza pops for lunch plus tons of other junk).

The fact that there are parents who are teaching their kids irresponsible eating habits is also something that I won't dispute.

But the solution to this a bit counter-intuitive to most parents. Many parents teach their children to finish their plates, but are also giving them portions that are too large. Even if the portions is only a little too large, it means that children are learning to overeat. The solution is to teach children from early on that they can eat as much or as little as they like: this will make them eat on average less. They learn to stop eating when they feel full. Most parents who try to control their children's eating habits however do so by restrictions, which causes a 'forbidden fruit effect' and will make the children eat more.

Watch PBS Online (click on 'Obesity Begins at Home' for the research on children's eating habits. The other parts are interesting too though)

Here is the Human Obesity Gene Map, which shows that there isn't one obesity gene, there are hundreds. Some influence appetite, others how 'lazy' someone is, others regulate how efficient someone stores fat, some regulate how well the fat is burned, etc etc...

And genetic factors are not the only things that are hard to escape from. Here is some research that shows that the mother's eating habits during pregnancy have a influence on how active the child will become later in life. Less active will mean less exercize and thus a higher risk of obesity.
It seems as if a fetus adapts to the environment it will grow up in. If the mother is undernourished, it makes evolutionary sense to become energy efficient (conserving energy and storing it efficiently).

The more researchers discover about human metabolism, the more complex it seems to become. And why would it be simple anyway? It is the one function of our bodies that has been evolving the longest.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Good points, and all the stuff I couldn't articulate.

Here is the Human Obesity Gene Map, which shows that there isn't one obesity gene, there are hundreds. Some influence appetite, others how 'lazy' someone is, others regulate how efficient someone stores fat, some regulate how well the fat is burned, etc etc...

I saw a show on a population (I think native) in the US now that historically came from an area where food was not exactly abundant. Now that food is abundant, 90% are like humongous. But when they started to watch what they eat, and excersized more, they lived longer and had a healthier weight (still not slim by any means though).


If food ever becomes scarce again, they will prevail very well.

We may hate our fat, but it's the reason humanity has survived hardships.

We are geared to love food and seek it out whenever we can. We are geared to store this energy source as fat.

I think the overly glorified stick thin bodies of the few most sought after models and such needs to be looked at. Our aversion to fat is seriously overly done. Women look better without bones jutting out everywhere. If they didn't attempt to diet they wouldn't mess up their metabolisms.

The morbidly obese have a problem we could never understand.
I'm just looking at those who say they don't eat much, and then we see they do. With the population getter fatter and fatter, we need to look at what we are eating. Not just the amount either. It can't all be genetics. The overeaters are making the people with genetic contributions indistinguishable. So of course a person will jump to conclusions until they know the person.

So yeah, don't ever expect everyone to be skinny, the human population depends on their fat in hard times. I'm just asking that people at least try to eat healthy and live healthy for health, not for body size.

 

[Earthborn]

I saw a show on a population (I think native) in the US now that historically came from an area where food was not exactly abundant. Now that food is abundant, 90% are like humongous. But when they started to watch what they eat, and excersized more, they lived longer and had a healthier weight (still not slim by any means though).

Sounds like you saw 'The Desert's Perfect Foods'. Check the PBS link above, if you want to see it again. Helps if you have broadband though. Here is the 'parent' page. It also gives a links to transcripts. The obesity episode is called 'Fat and Happy', but the others are worth watching too.

We may hate our fat, but it's the reason humanity has survived hardships.

That's exactly it. The people who become obese today are the ones who are best adapted to the conditions that existed until very recently. Humankind has changed their environment so dramatically that now they die earlier than the people who are skinnier. At 80 instead of 90...

I'm just looking at those who say they don't eat much, and then we see they do.

But again, they are not the only ones who do. Practically the whole society is overeating, some people of course more than others. (There are undoubtedly also many genetic, early childhood and prenatal enviromental factors influencing appetite). Only those who are most susceptible to obesity are becoming morbidly obese. This means that if we want to prevent this altered eating habits, we will have to ask of some people much more self-control than we ask of others. EvilYeti's approach of blaming and shaming is counterproductive.

But just imagine how hard this can become. Suppose you have a few children, one of them is much more susceptible to obesity than the others (perhaps it is adopted from obese parents). Could you deny this child the french fries, the other kids are allowed? This sort of thing can be emotionally very hard.

With the population getter fatter and fatter, we need to look at what we are eating. Not just the amount either. It can't all be genetics.

Well, it isn't all genetics. It isn't all food addiction either. There are hundreds, possible thousands of factors.

The overeaters are making the people with genetic contributions indistinguishable.

But the overeaters often have genetic contributions too, even if only the ones that make them overeaters/foodaddicts!

So yeah, don't ever expect everyone to be skinny, the human population depends on their fat in hard times. I'm just asking that people at least try to eat healthy and live healthy for health, not for body size.

That's exactly right! Unfortunately some people measure health solely by body size.

 

[EvilYeti]

Originally posted by Earthborn But again, they are not the only ones who do. Practically the whole society is overeating, some people of course more than others. (There are undoubtedly also many genetic, early childhood and prenatal enviromental factors influencing appetite). Only those who are most susceptible to obesity are becoming morbidly obese. This means that if we want to prevent this altered eating habits, we will have to ask of some people much more self-control than we ask of others. EvilYeti's approach of blaming and shaming is counterproductive.

I'm boggled at why you are trying to make this such a complicated issue. It isn't.

Almost everyone is going to put on weight when they overeat. That perfectly normal. You can quibble for all eternity about metabolism and genetics, but it doesn't change the fact that overweight people overeat. And the obese REALLY overeat.

The idea that some people can eat huge amounts and not gain weight, while others balloon up on 1,200 calorie diets is a myth. Every study that has objectively measured calorie intake, rather than just asking people what they ate, has proven this.

I think alot of the mythology is due to some thin people that will eat one huge meal a day and also exercise. I've known a few people like this and often do it myself. People will wonder how I can stay thin when I eat like a horse at my Sunday BBQ, for example. Its because I rode my bike 20 miles the day before and didn't eat all day Sunday; not genetics. Occam's razor, honey.

I've been overweight in the past. I got that way by engaging in a consistient pattern of overeating. If I had continued that pattern I would have become obese, then morbidly obese. Maybe I'm "genetically susceptible" to obeseity. So what, most obviouslly are, given the majority of overweight people in America.

Originally posted by Earthborn
EvilYeti's approach of blaming and shaming is counterproductive.

No, its not counterproductive. It's stating the truth. If you read my threads on addiction, you would understand that I see all addiction, food or otherwise, as a matter of choice. And its not my choice, or your choice. Its the addicts choice. If he/she ever decides that kicking the addiction is more important than feeding it, no more addiction. This is of course difficult and will involve pain and sacrifice, but thats just life.

By stating my approach is "counterproductive" is implying there is there is a more "productive" way to go about this problem. There isn't. Most dieters fail just like most junkies relapse. The habit is stronger than the will to quit. Look at the minority that triumph and what they have in common. You will find a simple, honest courage; that frankly, I find inspiring. Claiming that they have some genetic marker that makes it easier for them to "kick" is insulting to these folks, IMHO. And unfairly flattering to the failures.

RSL is morbidly obese because he would rather eat junk food, drink syrupy soda and sit on his ass then lead a healthy lifestyle. Its as simple and straightforward as that, no genetics or metabolism involved. Just simple, human CHOICE.

 

[EvilYeti]

And yet, so many opinionated idiots say "it's simple, just eat less and/or exercise more".

Who's the real idiot RSL, the samaritan giving good advice or the fool that refuses to heed it?

 

[Earthborn]

I'm boggled at why you are trying to make this such a complicated issue. It isn't.

You should make things as simple as possible but not simpler!

Almost everyone is going to put on weight when they overeat. That perfectly normal. You can quibble for all eternity about metabolism and genetics, but it doesn't change the fact that overweight people overeat. And the obese REALLY overeat.

And have I denied this? I think not.

Every study that has objectively measured calorie intake, rather than just asking people what they ate, has proven this.

Then show us such a study. I have shown several sites (including the friggin' CDC!) that agree with me. You have shown a site of exactly one journalist, not specialized in anything.

Its because I rode my bike 20 miles the day before and didn't eat all day Sunday; not genetics. Occam's razor, honey.

In your case that is probably true. I am not disputing that.

I've been overweight in the past.

How much?

No, its not counterproductive.

Yes, it is.

It's stating the truth.

In an unnecessarily harsh manner.

By stating my approach is "counterproductive" is implying there is there is a more "productive" way to go about this problem. There isn't.

Yes, there is: showing understanding and support.

Most dieters fail just like most junkies relapse.

With more supportive people around them they may succeed more eaily.

The habit is stronger than the will to quit.

Making people feel miserable about themselves doesn't make their will stronger.

Claiming that they have some genetic marker that makes it easier for them to "kick" is insulting to these folks, IMHO.

Saying that they have overcome some genetic marker, and acknowledging how hard it was, is not insulting.

And unfairly flattering to the failures.

Those that do not succeed are not failures. They are people who did not yet succeed.

Its as simple and straightforward as that, no genetics or metabolism involved. Just simple, human CHOICE.

And genetics, metabolism, childhood experience do not influence human choice? I think they do.

Who's the real idiot RSL, the samaritan giving good advice or the fool that refuses to heed it?

If you were the Samaritan from the parable you would have kicked the wounded man lying on the road to Jericho and you would have said: "Hey, step out it! Stop pretending you are a victim."

If you are oh so concerned with RSL, why don't you do anything constructive for him? Why not design a plan to lose some weight that is realistic for him and give some friendly tips to keep motivated?

 

[Terry]

Sure, Terry. Knock yourself out:
CDC on Obesity

So the brown adipose did it? In the genetic library, with the insulin-resistance?</cludo>

So if you're one of those luck obesity-resistant types, if you eat too much, you'll just run a slight fever till the excess energy is gone? Sounds handy. Methinks thre must be a limit to how much excess this mechanismm can cope with though.

Fascinating stuff, and a lot of it to read. I'm still looking for anything that says some people can run a 1000-kcal per day deficit and not lose a pound every 3.5 days though. I'll keep reading..

--Terry

 

[RSLancastr]

Who's the real idiot RSL, the samaritan giving good advice or the fool that refuses to heed it?

The difference is, I *know* that I am a fool.

The fact that you have deluded yourself into thinking that being a self-righteous, judfgemental, flaimng ass is being a "samaritan" is pretty funny.

 

[RSLancastr]

How much (weight did EviYeti lose)?

Yeti's expertise in the struggles of dieting come from, if I recall, a net weight loss of 15 pounds. (Lost 40lbs of fat, gained 25lbs of muscle, something along those lines). And good for him.

The fact is, he hasn't one effing clue.

When someone who has lost 15lbs tells someone who meends to lose 150lbs "I know the struggle of losing weight", they don't have a lot of credibility. When they then start trying to "shame" the person, they lose what little credibility they may have had.

If you are oh so concerned with RSL, why don't you do anything constructive for him? Why not design a plan to lose some weight that is realistic for him and give some friendly tips to keep motivated?

It wouldn't help. And I believe EvilYeti actually did pretty much that in an earlier thread.

I don't need any tips, I don't need someone to design a plan for me to lose weight. I know what I need to do. It is getting off the dime and doing it that is the problem.

For some reason, people who are not overweight/obese think that those of us who are overweight/obese don't realize that we eat too much, that we eat the wrong things, and that we don't get enough exercise. WE KNOW. But knowing these things, and changing them, are two different things.

 

[Earthborn]

So if you're one of those luck obesity-resistant types, if you eat too much, you'll just run a slight fever till the excess energy is gone? Sounds handy.

Or it doesn't even enter the bloodstream. Or this person is extremely restless and thus loses all that energy by moving around a lot. Or the person is a violent gesticulator. Or any of the other few hundred known and unknown factors.

Methinks thre must be a limit to how much excess this mechanismm can cope with though.

Of course. Each of the hundreds of mechanisms has a limit.

I'm still looking for anything that says some people can run a 1000-kcal per day deficit and not lose a pound every 3.5 days though.

Remember that the human body is evolved to cope with famine. If there is not enough food, it becomes more efficient. Many people will have difficulty losing a single pound even with not eating for entire month! Especially the Energy Efficient.

 

[Terry]

[...]Many people will have difficulty losing a single pound even with not eating for entire month! Especially the Energy Efficient.

I'm sorry, but I find that extremely hard to credit. You do have a reference for this I assume? Please point me to it.

<sarcasm type="unhelpful but oh so hard to resist">Zero calories in for 30 days and no weight loss? What are they, nuclear powered?</sarcasm>

--Terry