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Fasting

Mr Clingford said:
Sorry, just caught up with this thread!

Tom Sietas breathed pure oxygen for his 15 minute breath-hold (speeling?).

The official French record for holding one's breath on just normal air is over ten minutes.

Wow.
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I believe you have to be so saturated with O2 that you are literally numb before you start something like that. So it's not really relevant to the "rule of 3."
 
Slimething said:
Lemon does not help food move through the GI tract. Lemon is not an antacid (quite the opposite). Lemon does not help bicarbonate work. Everyone should drink water, lemonized or not. It's the water that does the work, not the lemon. Lemon does not cleanse the liver, increase expectoration or thin mucus. Dr. Dean is a quack. If you don't believe so, cite her peer-reviewed papers behind the claims you have posted.



KS, everything is a chemical, not just stuff made in labs, plants and factories. Natural stuff is full of natural chemicals. Presence or absence of synthetic chemicals does not necessarily affect the nutritive value of a food. For example, addition of synthetic ascorbic acid to apple slices does not render them dangerous. In contrast, the presence of too much natural aflatoxin in peanuts will do you lots of harm.

Don't fall for the popular but wrong platitudes that nature won't hurt you. Most of the deadliest substances known ot us are natural and most of these are complex enough that they can't be synthesized.



We are intelligent, analytical people. We know that molecules have no way to tell whether they're synthetic or natural so that's what draws skepticism to your statements. We also value statements and posits that are backed up by data, not whimsy. We would no sooner accept just-so statements that people like Dr. Dean make than we would believe Uri Geller is psychic. All statements must be backed up.



Believing woo does make you less of a skeptic than not believing woo. The "natural is better than synthetic" woo has been around for quite a while and there are very few authoritative sources speaking against it so this is really a pablum woo. There is no evidence for it.

However, as far as woo is concerned, this type of woo won't do you any harm as long as you don't believe it's claims that certain intake can cure diseases. If you want to spend the extra cash on food grown in certain ways, that's your choice. All that does is cost you a few more dollars every week. However, don't believe people who tell you that a certain type of calcium will cure cancer or that lemon will detoxify a specific chemical out of bone, fat or liver. Go see a doctor, and not a naturopathic one.
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I really must say this: I am not into naturopathic medicine period. I really just did a diet and lost some weight...I am merely speaking from experience, it worked for me, and that is a good thing. Never once did I say it was magical, nor did I say for anyone to believe in anything that they had not researched first. If I put a little lemon in my freaking water, who does it hurt?

I don't buy organic food...at all, as it is a waste of money, and I don't buy into any sort of 'woo' as you so delicately put it. I also don't feel that my intelligence is any less than yours, just because I did not spend hours researching my answers. I guess I am guilty of simply saying what is on my mind in regards to the topic at hand in a spontaneous manor.

I am all for a healthy diet, and I do realize there are chemicals in everything....I am not stupid, I am simply encouraging someone to eat healthy and avoid fasting to save his health. After all the OP was about fasting.

Thanks for your input.
 
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BenBurch said:
I believe you have to be so saturated with O2 that you are literally numb before you start something like that. So it's not really relevant to the "rule of 3."
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I'm not sure which record you are referring to; with normal air holds the athletes are closely watched for the 40 minutes beforehand so there is no chance of them breathing anything other than normal air.
 
karmicserenade said:
I really must say this: I am not into naturopathic medicine period. I really just did a diet and lost some weight...I am merely speaking from experience, it worked for me, and that is a good thing. Never once did I say it was magical, nor did I say for anyone to believe in anything that they had not researched first. If I put a little lemon in my freaking water, who does it hurt?
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Cool! I didn't want to come across as attacking. I'm sorry if I did. I merely just wanted to put my two cents in, just like you.

I also don't feel that my intelligence is any less than yours, just because I did not spend hours researching my answers. I guess I am guilty of simply saying what is on my mind in regards to the topic at hand in a spontaneous manor.
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Which really is what we're all here for. Don't be taken aback from the comments you get. You made comments off the cuff which is great but you have to realize that there are people on this Forum who have training in (and some who actually make a living at) some of the stuff you and I would write as a matter of course. Sometimes we're wrong and these people chime in to correct us. No biggie.

I have training in toxicology and risk assessment. I'm also a chemist so the research I've done is in the past and is still continuing on this very topic. I merely wanted to give you the benefit of what I know. I don't think you're doing or writing anything wrong (except for quoting dear Dr. Dean..GRRR ;)).

I am all for a healthy diet, and I do realize there are chemicals in everything....I am not stupid, I am simply encouraging someone to eat healthy and avoid fasting to save his health. After all the OP was about fasting.
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I agree that fasting is a pretty extreme step but I don't think the OP was doing it to save his health as much as experimenting with it. I've kind of fasted without consciously doing it. Sometimes, especially around the aftermath of the holidays, look at my gut and despair. I start drinking lotsa water and that really helps a fast although you really don't think you're fasting. Or at least I don't. (Some even has lemon in it. :p)

Thanks and be well.
 
Mr Clingford said:
I'm not sure which record you are referring to; with normal air holds the athletes are closely watched for the 40 minutes beforehand so there is no chance of them breathing anything other than normal air.
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Either. You can go quite numb hyperventilating sea level pressure air, it just takes more work and more willpower than most people have since the body will be screaming for you to STOP. I seriously don't think this is good for you!
 
BenBurch said:
Either. You can go quite numb hyperventilating sea level pressure air, it just takes more work and more willpower than most people have since the body will be screaming for you to STOP. I seriously don't think this is good for you!
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You certainly don't want to do hyperventilating - I agree with you there. The thing is though, those people who are very good at holding their breath, freedivers, avoid hyperventilation and go for extreme relaxation instead.
 
After four weeks at the health farm the diet group showed a significant improvement in number of tender joints, Ritchie's articular index, number of swollen joints, pain score, duration of morning stiffness, grip strength, erythrocyte sedimentation rate, C-reactive protein, white blood cell count, and a health assessment questionnaire score. In the control group, only pain score improved score. In the control group, only pain score improved significantly. The benefits in the diet group were still present after one year, and evaluation of the whole course showed significant advantages for the diet group in all measured indices.
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http://grande.nal.usda.gov/ibids/index.php?mode2=detail&origin=ibids_references&therow=232993

Not surprising. There is hard scientific evidence that a good diet not only extends your life span, but reduces your incidence of disease, in almost all areas.
 
karmicserenade said:
Why did I join this fourm? Well because I thought it would be great to discuss various topics with intelligent anylitical people...is that a crime?? Why did you join??

Doing a diet to lose weight does not make me some flake. I am simply trying to help a person who asked for it. I don't think that makes me any less of a skeptic. In fact I think it makes me a nice person :P.
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No it's not a crime and I have absolutely nothing against you or what you do. A diet does not at all mean that you're a flake. I think that the contention that red meats are somehow building up toxins in your body is not entirely accurate and I don't know that the "cleansing" is really something that would be scientifically valid.

But if it makes you feel good then fine knock yourself out.. We're skeptics here so prepare to have some of your ideas questioned. I've had a few of mine. It's not meant to be mean spirited. Anyway, it's by this method of refuting others positions that minds get changed. Mine has before on issues I thought I knew. Not many... but a few.

In any case, please don't feel you're not welcome or that disagreement with one thing or another is meant to be an insult. I only insult people who *really* have it coming and have just been asking for it too damn hard. Which is not you.
 
BenBurch said:
True, but it doesn't take special food. Most people do not conform to the food pyramid, and you can do that with regular food.
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I don't know what you mean by "regular food". The massive study showing the evidence that diet influences not only life span. but your risk of serious illness, is quite clear what foods are responsible for the effects. Even with all other risk factors considered, diet was the number one factor in health and lifespan.
 
Well, the food pyramid can be adhered to with just what you find in the average supermarket. You don't even need to buy name brands of anything.

Food%20Pyramid.JPG


No special anything required.
 
BenBurch said:
Well, the food pyramid can be adhered to with just what you find in the average supermarket. You don't even need to buy name brands of anything.

[qimg]http://web.mit.edu/athletics/sportsmedicine/Food%20Pyramid.JPG[/qimg]

No special anything required.
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EDIT; it helps to know what "serving" means in this context;

http://www.dietbites.com/diet-serving-size.html
 
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Modified said:
The symptoms of rheumatoid arthritis are an immune response. Fasting suppresses the immune system. It's not mentioned in the summary, but I would hope the study also attempted to determine whether or not fasting followed by a vegetarian diet results in long-term immune suppression.
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The symptoms of rheumatoid arthritis are from a malfunctioning immune response. There is evidence fasting improves the immune system (short fast). What evidence do you find that it suppresses the immune system?

Vegetarian diet is scientifically shown to increase resistance to infection, as well as every other major disease risk, as well as increasing life span.
 
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robinson said:
The symptoms of rheumatoid arthritis are from a malfunctioning immune response.
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Yes, as I said they are from an immune response. Suppressing the immune system helps all kinds of diseases that are thought to be autoimmune.

There is evidence fasting improves the immune system (short fast).
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Improves in what way?

What evidence do you find that it suppresses the immune system?
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http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1156940 "In humans, deliberately undertaken short term fasting is well known to induce immune suppression and improvement in RA disease activity". Reference to study follows the quote.
 
It seems fasting reduces the Leptin level, which decreases CD4+ activity.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=10524554
It doesn't seem to decrease the immune response to infection (Killer T-cells). Except at starvation levels, where there is reduced bronchoalveolar lavage neutrophil counts and interleukin-6 and macrophage inflammatory protein-2 levels.
http://171.66.122.149/cgi/content/abstract/173/2/212
Which interestingly enough is countered by Leptin, even without food.

What an interesting bunch of stuff that leads to.
 
Are there any studies on the psychological aspects of fasting, or any other "cleansing" or other things termed woo?
 
tomwaits, there are false premises that people often use to go to "extreme" dieting measures:

a) the body is infinitely malleable.

b) there is a large reward for losing weight.

In regards to (a), as unfair as it is and as much as we hate to admit it, much of our body composition is genetic. If you've been 200 lbs for the last 5 years, It's going to be difficult to get down to 150 in a healthy way and stay there. However, studies have shown that we can "reprogram" our genetic set weight by losing weight and keeping it around that weight for about 6 months. To do this, fasting is certainly not the best option.

In regards to (b) the only benefits that should come from losing weight is better health. Because fasting is in itself not the healthiest way to lose weight, what would be the point? Of course, most people think of large social rewards being obtained from losing weight. Don't believe it.
 
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