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False skeptic dogma?: "Always open to new evidence"

I can accept that we may find out future things which change our paradigm about gravity, but the shape of the Earth and... are absolutely certain in my Universe.

Then you need to read The Relativity of Wrong.

Specifically

Naturally, the theories we now have might be considered wrong in the simplistic sense of my English Lit correspondent, but in a much truer and subtler sense, they need only be considered incomplete.

Uncertainty doesn't mean believing any damned thing. In fact, reducing uncertainty can constrain what something is not, especially where definitions are involved. The way we have defined the word 'flat' renders it as something which the earth is not. However, the shape of the earth is always necessarily uncertain:

Even the oblate-spheroidal notion of the earth is wrong, strictly speaking.

However, it is more correct to say the earth is an oblate spheroid than a sphere, or than flat!

...

Piggy said:
In our normal human frame of reference, the earth is shaped more like a baseball than like a frisbee -- it's a globe, not a disk.

Why the qualification?

For everyday applications, 2+2=4. You pick up 2 rocks, then pick up 2 more rocks, you have 4 rocks in your hand, not 3 or 5.

Why the qualification?

The story in Genesis where it says there's a lake of fresh water up above the sky, and that's where the rain comes from -- that's false.

I'll have to take your word for it. I don't remember it actually saying that.

Santa Claus is a fairy story for kids.

Including the legends of St. Nicholas?

TRUTHTM may be relative, but uncertainty is a necessary consequence of our attempts to successfully pare away the crap from physical fact.

[admission]
One final note. I agree with Piggy about the slight dishonesty. I am not nearly as uncertain about some things as I try to appear on this forum, and in some cases I use it as a political conceit. [/admission]
 
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No, you don't agree with the OP.
Excuse me but I believed I have pointed out to you more than once you are not very good at reading my mind. Again, you fail the attempt.

Because you, like I, think that scientific theories has to be falsifiable.
How does this interfere with my certainty the Earth is not flat or that god beliefs are the result of human fantasies and not actual interactions with real gods? (While some want to only reject Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, Zeus and Pele, I have no trouble with the certainly of rejecting all god beliefs.)


Piggy don't. He thinks that there are some scientific truths that are simply beyond any scientific doubt anymore. Meaning, not falsifiable.
That is not how I define falsifiable.

Per Wiki
That something is "falsifiable" does not mean it is false; rather, that if it is false, then this can be shown by observation or experiment.
That 'if' refers simply to how one constructs a scientific hypothesis. It does not mean one cannot then reflect certainty in the hypothesis when evaluating the evidence.

But then, as you'll agree, it's not science anymore. It's simply dogma, disguised as science.

Read the OP again: Piggy rejects scientific falsifiability. He rejects that science could be wrong.

And I know that you don't agree with any of that.
I agree that I don't agree with your interpretation of the OP. No one is saying conclusions drawn from scientific method can't be wrong. I am and I believe others are saying some of those conclusions are certain. Let's be real, the Earth is not flat. If you want to leave that open to the potential for new contradictory evidence, I'd say that was just a semantics argument.
 
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It's interesting that you're trying to turn this whole thing on its ear.

The ONE rule maintains that there cannot be any claim which can be definitively said to be false.

And it does so without reference to the facts of the case, and without any evidence or logical justification for why this rule should be true.

And if we accept the ONE rule, then we are forced into ridiculous situations, such as the one you're placing yourself in, actually arguing that Santa Claus might be real.
I will leave it to the judgement of the readers whether this is what I was arguing, after having used phrases such as "overwhelmingly, mindbogglingly unlikely".
I'll say it again... if Santa Claus could be real, our world would not look the way it looks. Physical laws which are abundantly verified do not allow it.

If you want to argue that there's some chance that Santa Claus might be real, knock yourself out.

I wouldn't want to be in your shoes.
I am not arguing for the existence of Santa Claus.

I asked you to offer some support for your claim. Namely, that merely from the evidence that we gather, we can logically determine that some claim is definitely false. I therefore asked you for actual arguments supporting this conclusion in one of the cases that you yourself claimed we can definitely conclude to be false. I asked specific questions, I raised specific objections.

I am now satisfied in my inquiry, having made my conclusion as to what you have to offer to support your claim and to address my questions and objections.

Thanks for the discussion, and good night! :)
 
I can accept that we may find out future things which change our paradigm about gravity, but the shape of the Earth and the number of rooms in my house and the number of tires on my car are absolutely certain in my Universe.

Exactly.

To me -- and I admit I might be wrong here on the motivations -- it smacks of intellectual laziness or fear.

The shape of the earth is beyond question. If the earth were not a globe, I would not be able to pay for my gasoline at the pump with my credit card without going inside, and that option would not disappear when the satellite lost signal. (Among other facts too numerous to list.)

Clearly the earth is a globe, and those who are willing to concede that it might be a disk, even for the sake of argument, are simply taking their eye off the ball and focusing instead on pixie dust.

The real world is not a philosophical free-for-all where actual observations can be ignored at will in favor of groundless speculation which contradicts verified fact.

In the real world, 2+2=4, the earth is round, Santa Claus is a fairy tale, and beyond the atmosphere is space.

Anyone who wants to engage in contrary-to-fact dorm-room speculation about philosophical alternatives, well, you're free to do so. Can't stop you.

Just please don't expect me to accept that fairy tales and obvious falsehoods might be true on the grounds of "just because".

Anyone wants to claim that Santa Claus might be real, please explain to me how it's possible, given what we know about physics, that a man could fly through the air in a sleigh pulled by reindeer and deliver toys to kids across the globe in one night, and do so without being sussed out by parents who are under the impression that they are the ones who bought the toys and put them out.

Be my guest.

But let me be frank -- you're making fools of yourselves.

I just don't want you to make fools of all skeptics.
 
Why the qualification?

Because I was asked to give examples of what I considered certain, and those were the conditions under which I was certain that the statement was true.

Simple as that.

I've been around this block enough to know the inevitable hedges that are likely to pop up.

I described the conditions that I assert are undeniably true. That's all.

Did I rob you of your trick?
 
I'll have to take your word for it. I don't remember it actually saying that.

No, you don't have to take my word for it. You can go read it.

In any case, it's still true that there ain't no freshwater lake up above the sky.
 
Including the legends of St. Nicholas?

Santa Claus. I'm talking about Santa Claus.

But this is the kind of dodge I've come to expect.

Oh, but what about...

No. Deal with what's been said.
 
CFLarsen said:
Read the OP again: Piggy rejects scientific falsifiability. He rejects that science could be wrong.

I recommend that you read the OP again.

That's nowhere in it, not even implied.

Really, you've outClaused yourself here.

I'm not going to respond to any more blatant falsehoods like that from you anymore because if I do, it's going to turn this into another CFL trainwreck.
 
I will leave it to the judgement of the readers whether this is what I was arguing, after having used phrases such as "overwhelmingly, mindbogglingly unlikely".

I am not arguing for the existence of Santa Claus.

You and I are saying distinctly different things.

"Overwhelmingly, mindbogglingly unlikely" is not the same thing as "false".

I'm saying "false".

And that is exactly the distinction I was referring to in the OP.

So this is relevant.

You can't claim to be saying that Santa Claus isn't real, while at the same time claiming that he might be (no matter how small the chance you assign to that possibility).

I'm in the "ain't no Santa Claus" camp. You, apparently, are not.

You've placed yourself in the "not likely" camp.

But you want to have it both ways, like all ONE-rulers eventually do.

You're on record here as stating that there's a remote chance that Santa Claus might be real, but you don't want to actually own up to how ridiculous that is.
 
I asked you to offer some support for your claim. Namely, that merely from the evidence that we gather, we can logically determine that some claim is definitely false. I therefore asked you for actual arguments supporting this conclusion in one of the cases that you yourself claimed we can definitely conclude to be false. I asked specific questions, I raised specific objections.

I didn't notice any specific objections, but maybe I missed them. It's late and I'm tired.

So to make up for the deficit in my responses, how's about this....

If there were a lake of fresh water above the sky where the rain came from, we would have noticed it by now, and our satellite-based technology -- including military intelligence, pay-at-the-pump gas stations, and global communications networks -- would not be possible, and we wouldn't have a space program, Hubble images, or Web-accessible weather maps.

That's not theory. That's not philosophy.

Talk yourself into a "remote chance" house of cards if you like. But please forgive me if I don't move in with you.
 
You're on record here as stating that there's a remote chance that Santa Claus might be real, but you don't want to actually own up to how ridiculous that is.
I don't understand why you think it's ridiculous. There is a non-zero probability everything you think is true is actually false, and your brain just accidentally got in an extremely improbable state. This is improbable. It is possible. Thus it is possible that Santa Claus is real.

Is it absurd that Santa Claus could be real? By no means! The absurdity would be if Santa Claus is real. Neither you nor I believe that he is. We both will state that we are absolutely certain he is not. And yet if you state you assign probability 0 to 'Santa Claus is real' then like it or not you are being overconfident. You do not and should not anticipate ever taking any action which you would if Santa Claus was real but would not if Santa Claus was not real, and yet there remains the chance, however small, that you are wrong. Does this chance matter? In practice, no. Should you talk about this chance to anyone who does not understand the mathematics behind probability? No, because brains aren't precise enough to deal intuitively with probabilities that small, and they will say "either something is probability 0 or it has high enough probability that it might plausibly affect something", which is just wrong.

And yet if you assign probability 0, then you have faith - belief without evidence - smaller than a millionth of a mustard seed, maybe, but faith nonetheless. You can act as if it has probability 0 and with probability just shy of 1 never take an incorrect action because of it, but that's just computational efficiency.

That's what people who say "evidence could in the future sway me" mean. They don't mean "I anticipate evidence will sway me", they are saying that being in a state where evidence CANNOT sway you (i.e. probability 0 or 1) is far more ridiculous than Santa Claus being real.
 
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ETA: Sorry, I didn't mean to be so short in this post. I'm tired as well. Please don't take the tone of this post personally.
You and I are saying distinctly different things.
"Overwhelmingly, mindbogglingly unlikely" is not the same thing as "false".
I'm saying "false".
And that is exactly the distinction I was referring to in the OP.
So this is relevant.
Correct. That is why I asked you to support this with arguments, as opposed to assertions.
You can't claim to be saying that Santa Claus isn't real, while at the same time claiming that he might be (no matter how small the chance you assign to that possibility).
I say that Santa Claus is not real.

I do not claim that I can infer this to be logically true from available evidence.

Get it?
I'm in the "ain't no Santa Claus" camp. You, apparently, are not.
Apparently. Asking you to support your claim makes me claim the opposite. Sure. :rolleyes:
You've placed yourself in the "not likely" camp.
Read the following very carefully:

- I said that the evidence shows that the existence of Santa Claus is very unlikely. (This is not the same as saying that the existence of Santa Claus is possible. This is a statement on the upper bound of probability, not the lower bound.)

- I said that evidence, by itself, doesn't show that the existence of Santa Claus is impossible, and I have demonstrated why (non-zero chance of every piece of evidence being invalid).

- I didn't say that the evidence shows that the existence of Santa Claus is possible.

- I didn't make any claim about the possibility or impossibility of Santa Claus that would be based on available evidence. I asked you to support yours.

I invite you to verify every single of these facts by checking my posts.
But you want to have it both ways, like all ONE-rulers eventually do.

You're on record here as stating that there's a remote chance that Santa Claus might be real, but you don't want to actually own up to how ridiculous that is.
You're on record here as misrepresenting the truth.

I have not stated that there is a remote chance that Santa Claus might be real. Either produce a quote of me saying so, or retract your false statement.
 
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You're gonna have to explain that one.

Certainly.

Because you believe that a claim might be proven true by new evidence. A claim - no qualifications.

Of course, you go on to say that if something is false, then, that's that. End of story. Regardless of what comes up, sorry mate, that something is false.

Do you really not see the contradiction in that?

Don't need to give you 10. But here's a few:

In our normal human frame of reference

Bingo!

You got it.

Our normal human frame of reference.

But, in our normal human frame of reference, there is no infrared light. There is no ultraviolet light. The universe isn't curved. There is no quantum mechanics. And so on.

Yet, all these things exist, and many others - outside our normal human frame of reference.

, the earth is shaped more like a baseball than like a frisbee -- it's a globe, not a disk.

For everyday applications, 2+2=4. You pick up 2 rocks, then pick up 2 more rocks, you have 4 rocks in your hand, not 3 or 5.

And if you have 4 rocks, you also have 100.

Get it? Not 100 in your normal human frame of reference, but 100 in the binary world.

The story in Genesis where it says there's a lake of fresh water up above the sky, and that's where the rain comes from -- that's false.

Really? Do you think that "a lake of fresh water up above the sky" could be a hurricane, or a very heavy rainfall?

Why do you insist that we take myths literally?

Santa Claus is a fairy story for kids. There's not really a jolly fat man living with elves at the North Pole and making toys to deliver to children from his flying sleigh on Christmas Eve.

Wrong. Santa Claus is an old myth, way more complicated than the jolly fat man living with elves.

And, for your information, Santa Claus lives in Greenland. :p

If I told you that I was open to new evidence that we're wrong about the earth being round and it's really flat like it seems at a glance, or that we've been wrong all along about 2 and 2 making 4, or that there really is a body of water above the atmosphere, or that Santa Claus is real, I'd be lying.

I'm not open to new evidence for any of that because it's all definitively wrong. There will never be any valid evidence in favor of those positions because there cannot be. If those things were right, the world wouldn't be the way we know it is.

So are you going to tell me that you honestly believe that any of those things might be true -- that Santa Claus is real, that 2+2!=4 for everyday purposes, that the earth is a disk and not a globe from our normal human perspective, that there's a huge lake just beyond the atmosphere?

Because if you do tell me that you believe those things might be true, then I have to say:

That's one of the hallmarks of a false dogma -- it leads you to absurd and obviously false conclusions that don't match reality, and folks choose the dogma over reality.

Your normal human frame of reference is not the final description of the universe.

That pretty much sums up where I am on this, too.

I'm glad you mentioned the Matrix bit, because that always pops up eventually.

The argument that most boggles me is the "universal standard" argument -- the claim that we can't judge any case on its merits because we don't have a universal formula to apply to all cases.

As skeptics we should be willing to examine each case and judge it on its merits.

That's precisely what you don't do.

It's a mistake in logic to jump from "our perception of what is true or false is not always correct" to "our perception of what is true and false can never be determined to be correct".

That's precisely what you do.

Similarly, it is a mistake in logic to jump from "often our perception is incomplete" to "it's impossible to muster sufficient evidence for anything".

That's precisely what you do.


And your examples -- gravity and meteorites -- don't save the ONE rule. You can point to all kinds of things that people have been wrong about. You can also point to things people have been right about.

The fact that lots of people have been wrong about lots of things over the years does not mean that no one can ever be definitively right about anything, or that there cannot exist claims that can be definitively disproven.

The logic just doesn't work.

That's precisely what it does.

You're trying to portray me as someone who rejects the possibility of new evidence offhand, and who can't imagine new perspectives, new discoveries, and new technologies.

But that's not who I am and it's not what I'm saying.

I've already said that we should be open to new evidence most of the time.

What I object to is the unfounded -- and it is unfounded -- belief that we must be open to new evidence all the time. And I especially object to the suggestion that anyone who rejects this dogma is somehow being unskeptical.

I don't mind honest disagreement, but... come on now.

The problem with your argument is that you make up arbitrary standards for when something is final. It is inherently an appeal to ignorance: Because you can't imagine that some things could be wrong does not mean that they can't.

What Darwin's imagined surprise at changes in knowledge on something he accurately speculated about has to do with the universe changing to permit pencil travel is anybodies guess. Some form of madness on CFL's behalf is my only speculation, but it seemed important to him.

That is a non-answer.

If by "open to new evidence" someone means "willing to discuss whatever someone wants to claim", then in that sense I am certainly "open". Everything's open for discussion.

But in Jeff's article -- which I chose as a jumping-off point because in my experience it's a common belief among skeptics -- that wasn't what was implied.

What was implied is that it is unskeptical to go beyond "I don't believe that because I have no reason to believe it, but I'm willing to accept that there might someday be evidence provided which would cause me to believe it" and assert instead "That idea is demonstrably false".

The notion that I'm objecting to is not that we should be willing to discuss all points of view -- surely we should.

The notion I'm objecting to is that it is somehow unskeptical to conclude that any claim is certainly false.

You disagree with what Jeff is saying about being unskeptical to go beyond a certain point.

Do you think skepticism can be taken too far?

You're waffling. Who said anything about tomorrow?

You did - by accepting that - at least - some things can be proven wrong in the future.

And since a unicorn is a critter who can magically grant wishes if caught, then yeah, you can assume that there is no unicorn in your closet right now, period.

No, no, wait a second. The unicorn is not solely about granting wishes. The unicorn as such is claimed to be a physical creature. What it can do is beside the point of whether it exists or not.

When people in the middle ages were presented with this looong twisted horn and was told that it was evidence of unicorns, were they right to believe it? In their normal human frame of reference?

What is gained is, first, not accusing people of being unskeptical because they refuse to drink the ONE rule Kool-Aid.

We are not a cult, OK? Hysteric statements like that, comparing us to what Jim Jones did, is way off base.

Secondly, what is gained is rejecting a false dogma, which -- to my mind -- has value in and of itself.

Thirdly, what is gained is freeing ourselves from the ridiculous position of being forced to argue that, yeah, if you're a skeptic, you have to admit that leprechauns and Santa Claus might be real. Makes us look like fools.

Fourthly, what is gained is clarity of mind. If it's not true that no definitive conclusions can be reached, why labor under that false assumption?

Fifthly, what is gained is intellectual rigor, whereby we demand that sweeping assertions -- claimed to be true for all cases and at all times -- be supported with some sort of evidence, which the ONE rule is not.

Here's a concrete suggestion: Write an article and submit it to some skeptical publication. Skeptic Magazine, Skeptical Inquirer, or - naturally - SkepticReport. I cannot vouch for the other two, but I promise you that I will publish it in SkepticReport.

You will get your - and I'm sure you agree here - ground-breaking argument out to a much bigger audience.

What do you say?


The real question is this: What are the odds that such a scenario could actually happen.

The answer is not "very close to zero", as some would claim.

The answer is "zero", because if such a thing could happen, the world would not be the way we observe it to be.

Tell me something:

When you calculate the force of the Earth's gravity on your own body, do you also include the pull of the Moon? The pull of Pluto?

Yes, Pluto has a gravitational force on you, although it's not very small. So, in your human frame of reference, can you discard the gravitational pull of Pluto?

In the world I inhabit, the chances are exactly none. Slim has left the building.

No. In your human frame of reference, the chances may be so close to zero that you can dismiss them.

But your human frame of reference changes all the time. Why, if you were 100 years old, it would have changed dramatically in that time.

You are making some absurdly unsupported assumptions in this declaration. You have no clue other than what Darwin wrote how he might have speculated on the mechanisms of evolution.

Yes, I do: Because Darwin let the evidence decide. He didn't set out to prove evolution, he found the fossils, the living species on Galapagos, etc, etc., and let that decide the result.

So is it a semantic argument regarding a scientific principle that has you leaving the door open for evidence the Earth might be flat or is it a matter of discomfort with declaring certainty?

I can accept that we may find out future things which change our paradigm about gravity, but the shape of the Earth and the number of rooms in my house and the number of tires on my car are absolutely certain in my Universe.

No. Like Piggy and the rest of us, in your human frame of reference.

Excuse me but I believed I have pointed out to you more than once you are not very good at reading my mind. Again, you fail the attempt.

I don't have to read your mind, only what you have posted here.

How does this interfere with my certainty the Earth is not flat or that god beliefs are the result of human fantasies and not actual interactions with real gods? (While some want to only reject Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, Zeus and Pele, I have no trouble with the certainly of rejecting all god beliefs.)

Because Piggy's position excludes general falsifiability of scientific theories.

That is not how I define falsifiable.

I didn't say it was defined that way. I said it meant - as in, the result would be - that some scientific truths are simply beyond doubt - ever.

You don't think that - do you? Remember your human frame of reference...

I agree that I don't agree with your interpretation of the OP. No one is saying conclusions drawn from scientific method can't be wrong. I am and I believe others are saying some of those conclusions are certain. Let's be real, the Earth is not flat. If you want to leave that open to the potential for new contradictory evidence, I'd say that was just a semantics argument.

No, it isn't semantics. It's a question of you and Piggy realizing that "your universe" is not the real universe.
 
Some ideas are so overwhelmingly supported by evidence and reason that it is just plain silly to suggest that one should be open to the possibility that they are wrong.

Some ideas are so obviously contrary to the evidence that is already available and, despite proper testing, are so unsupported by evidence that it is just plain silly to suggest that one should be open to the possibility that they are correct.

The earth is roundish. Homeopathy is rubbish.
 
I am sure we agree on some things but this is a semantical argument. If you are absolutely sure then there is no need for new evidence. New evidence is totally uncalled for an pointless since you are absolutely right. However if you want to say that someone who is absolutely sure is also someone who isn't sure and is willing to look at new evidence because it may show that they are wrong then go ahead and I will agree with you.

I am absolutely certain that the Sun will rise tomorrow. However, if I wake up in the morning and the Sun isn't there, I won't wander around with my top off wearing sunglasses and commenting about what a lovely day it is.

That's the kind of thing I'm getting at. There are some things which it simply makes no sense to have any doubt about. The Sun rises in the morning. Rocks fall down. The Pope defecates in woods. Everyone can be absolutely sure about all these things. There is no doubt whatsoever and no need for new evidence. However, that still does not mean that new evidence could not come to light. What if the Sun actually didn't rise? What if rocks suddenly started falling up? What if someone saw the Pope on a toilet? Just because we are certain of something now does not mean it would make sense to carry on being certain if something proved it wrong.
 
those were the conditions under which I was certain that the statement was true.

I catch the drift. You're trying to define a situation in which certainty can exist. I draw my line at definitions within language. For example, the word "yes" is the opposite of the word "no," by definition (as opposed to any underlying physical fact). However, I am not even certain that my definition of where certainty exists would hold up with all readers. To me, it is common-sense that certainty can exist in a definitional sense... but I am not certain about this. ;)

I described the conditions that I assert are undeniably true. That's all.

Fair enough, but

In our normal human frame of reference, the earth is shaped more like a baseball than like a frisbee -- it's a globe, not a disk.

in fact, is undeniably false! In a local (read normal) human frame of reference, the earth has fields with bumps and a sky which resembles an inverted bowl. You're into an area of drawing arbitrary lines of certainty. I actually agree. The difference is that I accept that these things are certain, for all practical purposes. Once you start studying the physical reality, mathematical (data) uncertainty is your ally, or more precisely, knowledge of the limits of your uncertainty is.

Did I rob you of your trick?

I don't have a "trick." Anticipating a hedge is not the same as making a true statement.

No, you don't have to take my word for it. You can go read it.

In any case, it's still true that there ain't no freshwater lake up above the sky.

I'm sorry. That was lazy of me. What I meant to say was that it was late and I wasn't going to go open my copy right then. It doesn't mean that I never will, I just wasn't sure what I wanted to say about it then.

Santa Claus. I'm talking about Santa Claus.

But this is the kind of dodge I've come to expect.

Oh, but what about...

No. Deal with what's been said.

Fine.

I doubt there will ever be good evidence for the existence of a magic pixie at the North Pole, who gives out obsolete, crappy wooden toys to all the children, especially those who he made in his own image. :boggled:

There.

Does my diminutive language betray my TRUE position? If you think so, then go back and read my existing admission to the slight dishonesty. Again, I believe that definitional concepts (for example, real vs. imaginary) can be certain... but lazily enough, I'm not certain of this.

...

ETA: Like everyone here, I think I'm loosely mixing the definitions of uncertainty in conversation with mathematical uncertainty. I am certain, in conversation, that I am typing a post for the internet, but we can never be certain of the earth's shape, beyond the bounds of some future arbitrary precision.
 
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I am absolutely certain that the Sun will rise tomorrow. However, if I wake up in the morning and the Sun isn't there, I won't wander around with my top off wearing sunglasses and commenting about what a lovely day it is.
But aren't you changing conditions? I can think of several ways for the sun not to "rise" tomorrow. The sun could be extinguished by some manner, such as aliens, some hithero unknown law of physics that allow stars to die overnight, etc. However, the claim that the earth orbits the sun is entirely, 100% different than the claim that the earth will continue orbiting the sun tomorrow. Excuse the italics, but it's important.

We really, really know the earth (presently) orbits the sun. We have a good, but incomplete grasp of stellar astrophysics. There is no room for error in the first statement, plenty of room in the second. There's plenty of room for our understanding of the forces causing that orbit to be revised. Heck, I'll go so far as to say we may find out it is the hand of god propelling the earth, not curved spacetime. But, does the earth orbit the sun? Yes. We are not mistaken on that point.
 
On the issue of whether it is possible to introduce new evidence:

1. I assert that things can be true. This is not an assertion that we know them to be true, but that there are facts, and this is an independent variable to human consciousness.

2. Given acceptance of one, it follows that some things are true, and likewise, some things must be impossible. For example, if A is true, and mutually exclusive conditions are not possible, then we can state, with authority, that ~A is impossible. If it is true I am holding only 1 macroscopic object, an apple, in my left hand, therefore it is impossible that I am not holding an apple in my left hand. It is also impossible that I am holding a dog in my left hand. etc.

3. Let us distinguish between evidence and valid evidence. I'm not trying to play word games here. Take 'evidence' as a data point. Look out the window at the thermometer on your deck and you see it is 40 (C or F, your choice). Plenty of room for error. You read it wrong. The needle is stuck. Somebody snuck in and replaced your trusty American (F) thermometer for a nasty Canadian (C) one and you are using the wrong scale. You are having a stroke and hallucinated the whole thing. 'Valid evidence' is, in contrast, evidence that actually reflects the real world, within the error bars of the instrument. It reads 40C? Well, that means pretty darn hot, plus or minus a few degrees. The reading was accurate. I am not talking (yet) of our knowledge of whether the reading is accurate, just whether it actually reflects reality. If it does, it is a valid data point.

4. No valid evidence can be introduced to support an impossible event. If we reason based on valid evidence, we will conclude true things, and describe reality accurately (albeit with limitations). (elementary logic - not going through this step by step for now)

5. Therefore, if and only if we have valid evidence, we can state that something is true, or impossible, and know that it is not possible, no matter what, for new valid evidence to come into our possesion to contradict that point.


----------------------------------
Okay, so can we in fact know that we possess what I am calling valid evidence? I don't want to slide in my definition and just somehow assume our human brains are capable of determining that.

Karl Popper would say no, I think. He views (I'm so simplifing his position, forgive me, this is one sentence in a internet forum post) evidence as a long chain of inductions. See enough white swans, and you conclude there are not black swans. But, you could always see a black swan, so you are never 100% certain. He actually uses the swan argument early in his book.

I, Piggy, and others say bunk to that. Valid measurements are possible (assertion at this point).


allow me a thought experiment that does not prove the above, but allows us to think about it.

Take a GPS receiver. If it receives one satellite, you know (evidence level, not valid evidence level) your position is somewhere in a big three dimensional, hollow sphere.

If it receives two satellites, take the two big hollow spheres each satellite predicts, take their intersections, and that intersection describes the boundary of your position (with error bars, of course).

By the time you have 4 satellites, your position is pretty much pinpointed, within the aforementioned error bars.

Objections: satellites can be broken. You are assuming the world is round (actually, shaped as WGS-84 states). The receiver could be messed up. How do you know the receiver is correct (i.e., it's essential theory of operation - working perfectly within it's design, but wrongly)? etc.

Replies: First, this is a thought experiment, so let's not infinitely regress. The idea here is that once you know you have a valid data point, you can start triangulating your new data against it, establishing known limits for its fidelity to the real world. Triangulate literally in the case of the GPS, figuratively for non-geometric problem spaces. GPS receivers and satellites have built in error detection, and they work. How? Because they know the limit of what is possible, and can discard data outside of that. Did the calculated position become the surface of the moon? Something is defective, because we know that the satellites circle the earth, and there is no possible set of measurements that would allow placement on the moon so long as the measured distance from receiver to satellite is earth distance apart. even if by some unknown event the moon suddenly entered the earth's atsmosphere, and somehow you ended up standing on it in the position predicted by the receiver, we still know the receiver is broken, because that would have been pure coincidence. Something in the math or display must be wrong. Furthermore, by adding just one more data point, say, looking at your feet and noting you aren't, in fact, a few hundred thousand miles away on the moon, would suffice to disprove the idea that the receiver was correct. Oh, but I might be on LSD, and hallucinating I'm on the earth. Could be, but the next person who reads that reading ain't on LSD. Nor is the computer system designed to diagnose GPS receiver problems. Etc. Just adding a few pieces of evidence (yes, evidence, not valid evidence) allows us to weed out what is possible and impossible), and move from evidence, to valid evidence. There are combinations of truths which are impossible: we can remove possibilities from consideration. Remove enough, and we have validated our data point. We have valid evidence.

Naturally, that chain of proof started far before the GPS. We started back at the 2 rocks + 2 rocks stage, and fire burns stage, and levers multiply forces stage. We move forward, building knowledge. As I sit here typing, it is not probable that MOSFET junctions work - it are working.

I recognize the above is not rigorously airtight, but whatda expect from a forum post? :) I assert making it airtight is the matter of tying up the loose ends, the subject matter of a book or two. One I've always wanted to write, but eh, life intrudes.
 
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3. Let us distinguish between evidence and valid evidence. I'm not trying to play word games here. Take 'evidence' as a data point. Look out the window at the thermometer on your deck and you see it is 40 (C or F, your choice). Plenty of room for error. You read it wrong. The needle is stuck. Somebody snuck in and replaced your trusty American (F) thermometer for a nasty Canadian (C) one and you are using the wrong scale. You are having a stroke and hallucinated the whole thing. 'Valid evidence' is, in contrast, evidence that actually reflects the real world, within the error bars of the instrument. It reads 40C? Well, that means pretty darn hot, plus or minus a few degrees. The reading was accurate. I am not talking (yet) of our knowledge of whether the reading is accurate, just whether it actually reflects reality. If it does, it is a valid data point.
You're not trying to play word games, but you still are. You are saying that "valid evidence == strong evidence" and "evidence == negligible evidence". You are saying that we can only call evidence "valid" if, by itself, it is strong enough to compel a rational human brain to update its beliefs. You should say that instead of introducing the loaded word "valid".

4. No valid evidence can be introduced to support an impossible event. If we reason based on valid evidence, we will conclude true things, and describe reality accurately (albeit with limitations). (elementary logic - not going through this step by step for now)
This is absolutely false. In the most absurd worst case, consider Descartes' evil demon. What you want to say is that it becomes arbitrarily more improbable to accidentally get valid evidence for an impossible event. Or at least you should want to say that, because it's true.

I recognize the above is not rigorously airtight, but whatda expect from a forum post? :) I assert making it airtight is the matter of tying up the loose ends, the subject matter of a book or two. One I've always wanted to write, but eh, life intrudes
You'll find if you try to make it airtight that you can justify assigning a probability arbitrarily close to 0 to something, but never 0. AND that this shouldn't be worrying at all. It's not absurd, it's not implying you think Santa Claus exists, etc. It just feels that way because the human brain can't intuit probabilities that small. It's the same reason people think SOME chance of winning the lottery is automatically better than no chance at all, only with even smaller probabilities.
 
Thanks for the thread, I think there's still some juice in it.

For me it goes something like this:

1) Do you believe in god?

2) Are you 100% sure that there is no god?

I can answer them both 'no', and still feel all wise and skeptic about it.
 
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