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False skeptic dogma?: "Always open to new evidence"

If what you are interested in is telling someone that Santa Claus or God does not exist, you can reasonably do so. If you are interested in calling the existence of God a solved question, and never ever look back, you can do so as well.

Nobody is asking you to lose sleep over a 10-48 chance that you've missed some critical evidence. We are simply saying it's not the same as 100% certainty. If you have concluded that no more evidence is necessary, then this is a practical issue (because we are human and don't want to waste precious time, etc.)

You can still walk to a priest and scoff at the fact that he didn't do his homework.

Ok, so you're saying that it's a "solved question" but also that "it's not the same as 100% certainty".

That's fine, if it gets you through the night.

For me, you've gotta pick one or the other.

If the on-paper margin of doubt doesn't transfer to the real world, then it ain't real. That's where I'm coming from.

And that's why the "always open to new evidence" rhetoric bothers me.

Ymmv, tho, and that's ok.
 
Do you agree with me that it also doesn't matter? Atheist, Agnostic and Deist are all the same to me.

No, I strongly disagree with this.

But that's another thread, I'm afraid.

<looks for derailed-train icon>
 
No, I strongly disagree with this.

But that's another thread, I'm afraid.

<looks for derailed-train icon>

For a practical person you're very interested in philosophy, it's very odd. Bess said it best:

Queen Elizabeth I said:
I have no desire to make windows into men's souls.
 
Right, but to prove them consistent requires an infinite regress or circularity.

EDIT: But in the absence of new evidence, new contradictions, sure...



Why, what requires it to be infinite regression or circularity, the Münchhausen-Trilemma? What justifies the Münchhausen-Trilemma other then the Münchhausen-Trilemma or what makes the Münchhausen-Trilemma not circular itself? If you are using the Münchhausen-Trilemma as the basis to claim that we can not have definitive knowledge then you are simply using the definitive knowledge that infinite regression is not possible as part of your claim against definitive knowledge. If circular arguments sacrifice validity, then as a circular argument the Münchhausen-Trilemma sacrifices its own validity. As a contradiction, with the certain knowledge of the impossibility of a conclusion to infinite regression as the primary argument against certain knowledge, the Münchhausen-Trilemma had no validity to sacrifice in the first place.

Do you really need some circular and contradictory philosophical conundrum to tell you that in some cases justification is just a matter of opinion. Or to demonstrate that circularity can provide both justification and validation of that opinion. I wrote this, that knowledge is certain for me; you can feel free to dispute it all you want. The only justification or validity I can provide is that fact that I am now writing this (or circular). That is fine for me but may not be for you and this only demonstrate that absolute justification is not possible (certain knowledge for all people) yet certain knowledge and justification for an individual can be (like absolute justification is not possible).
 
Ok, so you're saying that it's a "solved question" but also that "it's not the same as 100% certainty".

That's fine, if it gets you through the night.

For me, you've gotta pick one or the other.

If the on-paper margin of doubt doesn't transfer to the real world, then it ain't real. That's where I'm coming from.

And that's why the "always open to new evidence" rhetoric bothers me.

Ymmv, tho, and that's ok.

Yeah, I see where you are coming from now. :)

Expressing any doubt at that level of certainty leaves one open to being misunderstood; so in fact it's more clear to state that something is certain, than to risk being misunderstood by up to 47 significant digits.
 
Yeah, I see where you are coming from now. :)

Expressing any doubt at that level of certainty leaves one open to being misunderstood; so in fact it's more clear to state that something is certain, than to risk being misunderstood by up to 47 significant digits.

Ok, I think we can share a bench there. :)
 
Why, what requires it to be infinite regression or circularity, the Münchhausen-Trilemma? What justifies the Münchhausen-Trilemma other then the Münchhausen-Trilemma or what makes the Münchhausen-Trilemma not circular itself? If you are using the Münchhausen-Trilemma as the basis to claim that we can not have definitive knowledge then you are simply using the definitive knowledge that infinite regression is not possible as part of your claim against definitive knowledge. If circular arguments sacrifice validity, then as a circular argument the Münchhausen-Trilemma sacrifices its own validity. As a contradiction, with the certain knowledge of the impossibility of a conclusion to infinite regression as the primary argument against certain knowledge, the Münchhausen-Trilemma had no validity to sacrifice in the first place.

Do you really need some circular and contradictory philosophical conundrum to tell you that in some cases justification is just a matter of opinion. Or to demonstrate that circularity can provide both justification and validation of that opinion. I wrote this, that knowledge is certain for me; you can feel free to dispute it all you want. The only justification or validity I can provide is that fact that I am now writing this (or circular). That is fine for me but may not be for you and this only demonstrate that absolute justification is not possible (certain knowledge for all people) yet certain knowledge and justification for an individual can be (like absolute justification is not possible).

The trilemma is just a formalism which summarizes 3 logical conclusions that appear to apply to all certain knowledge. As long as it is self-consistent there is no paradox. How do we formulate a purely logical analysis without consistency? The fact that the trilemma itself is not justifiable with certainty according to itself, does not preclude having vast data and experience that justify it strongly. The same is the case with questions of God's existence or lack thereof, and the question elicited by the OP. I suppose you could say that it begs the question, but that seems to be an illusion due to the strength and structure of the evidence.

As a general rule, the more consistent something is with reality, the more certain it is. The trilemma shows us how to get closer to certainty. If you find a better alternative way to do so, it would not necessarily invalidate the trilemma, but to claim that the trilemma is false would suddenly break our understanding of what it means to come closer to the truth, and which would consequently invalidate the way in which you came to conclude that God does not exist, in which case your conclusion that God does not exist would not be valid.

The only way to validate that process by which you determined that God does not exist, would be by resuming that process, which is equivalent to "always being open to new evidence".

In other words, if you are not open to new evidence, that attitude contradicts the very way in which you came to earlier conclusions, and it opens up the door for justifying the dogmatic processes of those who contradict your original assertions, namely those of theists.
 
The trilemma is just a formalism which summarizes 3 logical conclusions that appear to apply to all certain knowledge. As long as it is self-consistent there is no paradox. How do we formulate a purely logical analysis without consistency? The fact that the trilemma itself is not justifiable with certainty according to itself, does not preclude having vast data and experience that justify it strongly. The same is the case with questions of God's existence or lack thereof, and the question elicited by the OP. I suppose you could say that it begs the question, but that seems to be an illusion due to the strength and structure of the evidence.


Logic is just a tool, if you put crap in you get crap out. If your premise is inconsistent then so will be your “purely logical analysis”. The first error in the premise is that it applies to certain knowledge as the conclusion is that there can be no certain knowledge, it can only apply to uncertain knowledge. Of course you do not need the trilemma to tell you that. The only need for justification or validation comes specifically from a lack of knowledge. With infinite knowledge no justification would be required as validity would be knowingly established. So given the requirement of a specific lack of knowledge for the applicability of justification and validity they specifically can not come from an infinite regression as the need is based on finite knowledge. The first conclusion is simply a straw man to claim that infinite regression is not possible in a situation that specifically requires finite knowledge.

Without infinite knowledge all justifications resulting from finite knowledge must terminate somewhere even if it is at the very end or beginning of that finite knowledge. An arbitrary termination is just that arbitrary and leaves the justification open and more easily questionable. The termination of a justification at some circular reference, namely a tautology provides a more justifiable termination (a logical cul-de-sac), when terminated succinctly the circular reference adds validity to the justification as opposed to sacrificing it.

The very aspects that the trilemma addresses, justification and validation only derive from and are only applicable to limited knowledge. To then claim that it demonstrates all knowledge, justifications and validations must be limited is in fact “begging the question”


As a general rule, the more consistent something is with reality, the more certain it is. The trilemma shows us how to get closer to certainty. If you find a better alternative way to do so, it would not necessarily invalidate the trilemma, but to claim that the trilemma is false would suddenly break our understanding of what it means to come closer to the truth, and which would consequently invalidate the way in which you came to conclude that God does not exist, in which case your conclusion that God does not exist would not be valid.


What? Remember “The trilemma is just a formalism which summarizes 3 logical conclusions that appear to apply to all certain knowledge” where does it describe a process that “shows us how to get closer to certainty”. Conclusions are not a process but the end of a process.

The only way to validate that process by which you determined that God does not exist, would be by resuming that process, which is equivalent to "always being open to new evidence".

In other words, if you are not open to new evidence, that attitude contradicts the very way in which you came to earlier conclusions, and it opens up the door for justifying the dogmatic processes of those who contradict your original assertions, namely those of theists.


Again, about limited knowledge, it is not just knowledge that can be limited. The situation or system can also be limited making the knowledge of that situation or system complete although not infinite. Again with the, “not open to new evidence” straw man, one can always be open to new evidence but some limited systems or situations are not. So the issue is not about being open to new evidence but what the new evidence can be evidence of. Let’s try this again 13 or even 1 are not obtainable on a roll of a standard pair of dice, yes that is a circular reference and a tautology. If we apply that to any given roll of any given pair of dice and get as a result anything but a whole number between 2 and 12 (inclusive) then we can conclude that the dice were not standard or the result was misinterpreted. As it tells us something about the dice and the outcome, the application of our certain knowledge of the possible outcomes on a standard pair of dice is not a tautology, as it is also only valid for results that are not a whole number between 2 and 12 (inclusive). In this limited situation of a limited system our certain yet finite knowledge provides the justification for and the validity of the conclusions about the dice or the outcome of the rolls (not standard or misinterpreted). You can certainly be open to new evidence of a 14, 12.5, p or “Fred” as the outcome of the roll but they only apply to the questions of if the dice are standard and if the roll was accurately interpreted. New evidence sure, but new evidence of what, the conclusions of the “begging the question” trilemma says that we can never be sure, when we certainly can by applying our limited knowledge to equally limited situations and systems.

Oh and by the way, there is no need to presume what I conclude or how I concluded it. I am more then happy to tell you or if it is too personal or none of you business, I’m more then happy to tell you that as well. As far as the existence or God is concerned, for me it is simply not an issue, whether God exists or not is simply of no personal concern to me. I have do not change my actions because of some human threat in my life, I am certainly not going to prepare to do so because of some eternal threat upon my death.

As far as Santa Claus and the tooth fairy go, they are simply lies told be adults to children. Might some trans-dimensional rift or genetic engineering make Santa Claus and the tooth fairy possible at some future time, who can say. What I can say is that all the events that I was told were due to the tooth fairy or Santa Claus, were just my parents or relatives and no future or present possibility of an actual Santa Claus or tooth fairy can change that.


Question: When does a lie always have at least some probability of being true.

Answer: When it is told by a philosophical skeptic to a philosophical skeptic.
 
I think we are agreeing more than we are disagreeing at this point. The only point of contention appears to be whether there is terminality in a personal process of discovery. With our limited time, some answers are good enough, or justifiable enough.

This doesn't mean they can't be overturned by new knowledge.
 
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I think we are agreeing more than we are disagreeing at this point. The only point of contention appears to be whether there is terminality in a personal process of discovery. With our limited time, some answers are good enough, or justifiable enough.

This doesn't mean they can't be overturned by new knowledge.

Why did you have to go and do that?

We had it all worked out so nice!
 
Why did you have to go and do that?

We had it all worked out so nice!

It was a response to The Man, but the quote tags don't do anything if you delete the content, so it didn't show; I'm still on that bench, and think my exchange with you was most enlightening.
 
I think we are agreeing more than we are disagreeing at this point. The only point of contention appears to be whether there is terminality in a personal process of discovery. With our limited time, some answers are good enough, or justifiable enough.

This doesn't mean they can't be overturned by new knowledge.


It was a response to The Man, but the quote tags don't do anything if you delete the content, so it didn't show; I'm still on that bench, and think my exchange with you was most enlightening.


What, no room on the bench for me?

Although it must be a long bench, I was not speaking of the terminations within any given lifespan. I was talking about the terminations that one might give to some conclusions, sometimes encompassing multiple life spans, like the trilemma or 13 on a standard pair of dice. Termination is just another word for conclusion. If one makes no definitive conclusions (or terminations) within thier life, then they might as well be dreaming.
 
The statement "In our normal human frame of reference, the earth is round, not flat" is not a tautology. It is an observation about the world we live in.

And it's an important one, don't you think?

Here's another: "Space exploration is real, it is not a media hoax." That's not a tautology either.

And this: "There is not a meeting of Al Qaida operatives going on in my kitchen."

Or this: "The Holocaust happened."

There are very real questions about the world to deal with, and it makes a very real difference in our lives whether we can or cannot come to definitive conclusions about them.

Somehow I think you missed my point. Nowhere did I say that there aren't real questions that we can come to definitive conclusions about.

How does this have anything to do with devising an imaginary universe in which it is possible to define a roll of an ordinary set of dice as coming out to thirteen?
 
If the proposition was rolling a 13 and not rolling a 13 are both true then it would be a tautology. As it is rolling a 13 is false not rolling a 13 is true then it is not a tautology, regardless of any limitations.

Of course. Nor did I say anything that would suggest otherwise.

What I did was point out that if one is going to quibble about there being imaginable circumstances in which an impossible outcome would be true, the answer is "yes." You can always construct an imaginary universe that yields the desired outcome. But I further pointed out that to do so was nothing more than constructing a deliberate tautology around that particular outcome. A tautology yields no useful information.

This may come as a surprise, but limitations are the only way that science can operate.

No surprise at all, considering I've spent my entire adult life working in scientific fields. That you feel you needed to point this out to me indicates that you missed the point of my post.

That science changes is its strength not its weakness. When skeptics and scientists proclaim that absolutely everything is possible but just perhaps improbable, we throw gas on the fire and add fuel to the credulous that look for any excuse to support unsupportable notions.

No argument there.

An impossible outcome on a complex system, I doubt you could demonstrate that, an impossible outcome on a simple system like precision dice or shaking a solid mass, this is the foundation of science and hardly trivial. If you simply choose to consider all systems as complex as your imagination can possibly consider them and beyond any practically applicable limits (regardless of the limits of even a simple system) then you will never learn anything other then “everything is possible”. Possibilities without constraints, is the life blood of the credulous, possibilities within improving constraints, is science.

I will assume that the "you" in your statement is generic rather than specific, since I essentially made the same point, albeit in fewer words. ;)
 
Well let's not be too down on wearing a kilt. I used to wear one when playing the bagpipes, but it never went to my head.

For modesty's sake, it's a good thing that the kilt never went to your head... oh, perhaps you're speaking figuratively :)
 
Of course. Nor did I say anything that would suggest otherwise.

Perhaps it was the “what does that get you?” question?


What I did was point out that if one is going to quibble about there being imaginable circumstances in which an impossible outcome would be true, the answer is "yes." You can always construct an imaginary universe that yields the desired outcome. But I further pointed out that to do so was nothing more than constructing a deliberate tautology around that particular outcome. A tautology yields no useful information.

Did you, sorry I did not see that in your post, I read nothing about imaginable circumstances or impossible outcomes. I certainly did see the correct assertion that a tautology “yields no useful information”, but that is only in and of itself. In its application the tautology of no 13 on a standard pair of dice tells you that the dice were not standard or you misinterpreted the roll, but perhaps you missed what I did point out.


No surprise at all, considering I've spent my entire adult life working in scientific fields. That you feel you needed to point this out to me indicates that you missed the point of my post.

As have I, but your post did not express that fact. Perhaps you are using too few words.


No argument there.

Agreeing is always agreeable for me.


I will assume that the "you" in your statement is generic rather than specific, since I essentially made the same point, albeit in fewer words. ;)

Once again we agree, in that “you” was a generic application in my statement and I’m sorry, but we do not agree that your remarks as to the definition of a tautology anyway equates to my remarks as to the application of tautologies. The point you now say you were making required more words then you used at that time.
 

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