Fairtrade Cocoa

[DC]

The claim in the link is not child labor, but child slavery. Working without a say and without pay. Being trafficked across international boundaries against their will. Beatings. Being locked up at night. Beaten for trying to escape. Work sunup to sundown. Beaten if you drop a bag. Insufficient food.

Did I mention the slavery and beatings?

but but.... that makes Chocolate cheaper and cheaper is good.

 

[mumblethrax]

I can't decide if Cain is the world's greatest satirist, or if everyone else in this thread has an autism spectrum disorder.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

The claim in the link is not child labor, but child slavery.

I stand corrected.

Did I mention the slavery and beatings?

Oh, that's not half of it. I have read the book Free the Children by Craig Kielburger. I recommend it to everyone who wants to know more about the issue. A particular illustration that stuck in my head is a photo of little girl whose job consisted of cleaning used syringes. She had never been told to wash her hands after work and had no concept of safety measures such as gloves or diseases such as HIV. The floor, according to the book (I just had a look) was covered in medical waste from the used syringes.Oh, and the girl was barefoot.

If you read the book, the picture of this eight year old girl sitting in a pile of used syringes will stick with you forever.

 

[roger]

I stand corrected.

Oh, that's not half of it. I have read the book Free the Children by Craig Kielburger. I recommend it to everyone who wants to know more about the issue. A particular illustration that stuck in my head is a photo of little girl whose job consisted of cleaning used syringes. She had never been told to wash her hands after work and had no concept of safety measures such as gloves or diseases such as HIV. The floor, according to the book (I just had a look) was covered in medical waste from the used syringes.Oh, and the girl was barefoot.

If you read the book, the picture of this eight year old girl sitting in a pile of used syringes will stick with you forever.

I was so happy in my cocoon of ignorance

I knew about the kids in India disassembling computer parts, but not the medical waste stuff.

Which poses a question I don't know how to answer - which is worse, slavery but no extreme danger, or low wages coupled with assured dangers.

 

[lionking]

I can't decide if Cain is the world's greatest satirist, or if everyone else in this thread has an autism spectrum disorder.

Well if he is, he kept it going for a considerable period of time, and very convincingly, in the meat-eating thread.

 

[Madalch]

I want ONE person to tell me he or she doesn't smile at the mere mention of Count Chocula. You can't do it.

Anyway, to answer your question: who cares?

I don't smile at the thought of Count Chocula, Franken-berry, or Boo-berry. The only memory I have of those cereals involved vomit.

On second thought, the rising gorge that I'm feeling right now probably has more to do with your applause of child slavery as a way to make your chocolate cheaper.

 

[mumblethrax]

Well if he is, he kept it going for a considerable period of time, and very convincingly, in the meat-eating thread.

So that's one vote for autism.

 

[Cain]

you are not neutral.
you took an anti fairtrade stance.

Under free trade you can have "fair trade." Under "fair trade" you cannot have free trade. I'm neutral.

everyone is free to buy it if he wants and can.

Indeed, but this doesn't stop "fair-traders" from trying to guilt people smarter than they are.

 

[Cain]

On second thought, the rising gorge that I'm feeling right now probably has more to do with your applause of child slavery as a way to make your chocolate cheaper.

Hold on one cotton-pickin' second, you just gave me a great idea. Imagine affordable premium-grade dark chocolate made from the finest child slave labor, I call it... "Scandalous."

 

[lionking]

So that's one vote for autism.

No, but a vote to you for smart-arsery.

 

[Tatyana]

This is completely false. I am rationally ignorant of how my bananas are produced, nor do I know how the pin is made in the factory Adam Smith studied because... who cares? None of that matters. If someone else can create a superior product at the same price, then I will buy it. YOU are acting contrary to a fundamental tenet of a free-market system: consumer self-interest.

But this is capitalism and you're free to choose. I don't mind people buying slavery free goods, it's their damn air of moral superiority that annoys me.

I wonder if your view has anything to do with where you live?

 

[DC]

Under free trade you can have "fair trade." Under "fair trade" you cannot have free trade. I'm neutral.



Indeed, but this doesn't stop "fair-traders" from trying to guilt people smarter than they are.

LOL nice one, i thought you ment it, its only now i realise you are trolling.

 

[Cain]

I wonder if your view has anything to do with where you live?

I'm not sure what you're responding to, but it's curious how no one has been able to account for basic economic arguments.

"Slavery's" been around since we abandoned our nomadic ways in favor of civilization. My ancestors did pretty well for themselves, but I do like how people try to guilt us with the CHILD slavery. Yeah, that's a great idea, let's just save the cute slaves.

Earlier someone asked how the conditions for (alleged) slaves is uplifted by the market. Basic intuition should provide you with answers: Owners have an interest in protecting their labor. This is why property ownership is so great -- because private individuals monitor and take care of it, all owing to the profit motive. Compare this against public housing, or the foreign aide that causes more problems than it solves.

LOL nice one, i thought you ment it, its only now i realise you are trolling.

More like slumming.

Anyway, I just had some cheap chocolate that may have been made using slave labor. Mmmmmmmm it was so good you guys.

Tonight I'm having cake. Guess which kind?

 

[DC]

Trolling is funny, but i think not when its about slavery that uis really happening at this moment.

 

[Matilda]

This is the statement of the Fairtrade foundation in response to the Panorama programme:

http://www.fairtrade.org.uk/press_o...10/panorama_special_report_press_release.aspx

If I were to boycott all non-Fairtrade chocolate and urged everyone I know, including those on the forum, to do the same, would that do anything for the plight of these young slaves or would it result in their fate being even grimmer (if that's possible) as their bosses' income is reduced?

You would be rewarding producers who don't use slavery, who are otherwise trying to compete with those who do. What producers who use slavery will do in response, I can't say, but I personally don't want them to benefit economically from their use of slavery, so I try to minimise my economic role in that system.

Not that Fairtrade is flawless, as highlighted in the programme. And it's not, I think, going to solve the problem all by itself, but it will make a difference to some. I see it as a starting point for better working conditions and pay, rather than the end point.

In the UK, both Nestle and Cadbury are now producing Fairtrade chocolate bars. They wouldn't do this unless it was good for their brand, and they thought that was what their consumers wanted.

 

[lionking]

Not that Fairtrade is flawless, as highlighted in the programme. And it's not, I think, going to solve the problem all by itself, but it will make a difference to some. I see it as a starting point for better working conditions and pay, rather than the end point.

In the UK, both Nestle and Cadbury are now producing Fairtrade chocolate bars. They wouldn't do this unless it was good for their brand, and they thought that was what their consumers wanted.

Thanks, and I agree with this. The only problem in Australia is that I could only find two chocolate bars with the Fairtrade sticker. I think I will start going into chocolate stores (uppity, smug neo-hippie that I am) asking if they have Freetrade chocolate and walking out if they don't, and will encourage work colleagues and friends to do the same.

 

[DC]

will encourage work colleagues and friends to do the same

i'll do that too.

 

[Matilda]

This might be helpful:

http://www.fta.org.au/buy-sell

Good luck

 

[mumblethrax]

No, but a vote to you for smart-arsery.

Thank you for your support.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Geez, the moral high-ground's getting mighty crowded these days. I'm supposed to feel guilty about the car I drive, the size of my television, air-conditioning, and now my Count Chocula. I want ONE person to tell me he or she doesn't smile at the mere mention of Count Chocula. You can't do it.

Anyway, to answer your question: who cares?

So you are allowed to make all the points you want, and if someone makes a counterpoint as to why they feel the way they do, you acuse them of just wanting to take the moral high ground? That's a nice way to win an argument, anytime someone has a point about why they feel the way they do, you can just say "ha ha, you're grandstanding on a moral argument!" Nevermind the fact that the poster is giving a legitimate reasoning for why they feel the way they do.



You talk about how much you hate smug fair trade buyers...but the only person I see being smug and hostile about their choices here is you. You tell others "don't tell me how to feel," meanwhile you mock the choices others make just because they are different from yours.

Also, you're actually mocking the idea that someone doesn't feel comfortable supporting slavery? You make it seem like the only reason people bring up the subject of child slavery is to try and guilt others and feel superior...did it ever occur to you that people just genuinely care about the welfare of children? Are we not allowed to talk about subjects which have a moral component, that's just "moral grandstanding?" Are we not allowed to care about human rights without being mocked as trying to "guilt" others? Are we supposed to LIE and say our motivations are different than what they are just so Cain won't say "moral grandstanding! Moral grandstanding!" Are we supposed to not talk about news stories and social issues you don't care about but we do because that will be construed as trying to "guilt" others? This is a social issues forum. People are going to talk about social issues that concern them. Talking about things that concern you is not by default a command to others that they HAVE to care about it too and act accordingly. I don't know why you're treating this thread as such.

Listen, I understand your position. Many, if not most consumer goods have some element of suffering along the way. I completely and totally understand people who say it's just pointless to get caught up in the morality of where our stuff comes from because no matter what you do, unless you're a hermit, you're going to be supporting suffering.

What I don't understand is people like you who actively mock those who DO care. People like me. I care about the impact I have on the world around me. I don't eat meat, I don't own a car, I buy locally whenever possible. I don't do these things "to feel good about myself" but simply because I feel it is the right thing today. I recognize I'm not going to save the world and that many other things I do have a negative impact on the world around me. But I'm also going to try and do the right thing as I see it when and where I can. I do not claim that this makes me better than other people. Maybe I buy locally and you don't, but you do something else which contributes positively in the world that I do not.