Facebook bans far right groups

[uke2se]

The problem with all this is it allows anyone on the "Pretending to be a racist to troll people" to "actual racist" spectrum to ruin anything by making it "about" racism.

Sure now it's mostly meaningless symbolism and vague co-opted stuff like that, stuff that isn't particularly worth fighting to get back, but it isn't going to stay on that level forever.

Imagine something you love; an image, a gesture, a fictional character, a piece of clothing, whatever, as the the next thing these racist and/or trolling doucheturds choose to appropriate.

At a certain point we have to at least put the option of taking some of this stuff back on the table, instead of the "Well they touched it, it's ruined forever now" mentality.

That's true, but the Nazis haven't taken over the OK-hand gesture. Chefs still use it to indicate the exquisitness of the taste they are creating, divers still use it to indicate all is well. Children and "funny" people use it together with a forefinger to indicate sex.

When alt-righters and their fellow travellers use it, however, we all know what it means. I am not going to ignore it, and I will keep pointing it out. If that makes the Nazis laugh, it's because they're idiots. They make the choice to indicate that they are racists. I make the choice to record it for posterity.

 

[JoeMorgue]

When alt-righters and their fellow travellers use it, however, we all know what it means. I am not going to ignore it, and I will keep pointing it out. If that makes the Nazis laugh, it's because they're idiots. They make the choice to indicate that they are racists. I make the choice to record it for posterity.

Yeah but that just turns the whole thing back to "It's racist when racists do it, not racist when racists aren't the one doing it" and that's... sort of circular.

Basically it leaves the door open to "If you do the thing in question and I want to call you a racist, this proves it."

 

[uke2se]

Yeah but that just turns the whole thing back to "It's racist when racists do it, not racist when racists aren't the one doing it" and that's... sort of circular.

Basically it leaves the door open to "If you do the thing in question and I want to call you a racist, this proves it."

Are you worried about non-racist people being called racist because they use the ok-gesture?

Or are you worried that it's not a perfect way to identify racists?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Are you worried about non-racist people being called racist because they use the ok-gesture?

I'm not "worried" per se, I just don't think it's a crazy idea to put forward in this day and age that something so vague and situational can be either intentionally or unintentionally misunderstood.

 

[uke2se]

I'm not "worried" per se, I just don't think it's a crazy idea to put forward in this day and age that something so vague and situational can be either intentionally or unintentionally misunderstood.

No, it's not a crazy idea at all.

But I'm not going to play the "gotcha" game set up by the Nazis. When they use the ok-gesture, I see a Hitler salute. It's what they intend even if they use it "ironically".

I don't see how this can be difficult for anyone. When someone on extreme right flashes an ok-sign, they are saying they are proud to be racist. When someone who isn't on the extreme right does it, they are most likely saying "ok". If you are unsure what their politics are but feel the ok-sign seem out of place, check further if it bothers you.

 

[Belz...]

No, it's not a crazy idea at all.

But I'm not going to play the "gotcha" game set up by the Nazis. When they use the ok-gesture, I see a Hitler salute.

How do you know they're Nazis, then, and not just, you know, a member of your much larger list of punchables?

 

[PhantomWolf]

It's a signal being used by white supremacists in what was originally a "joke" that became serious. They are telling us they are racists. We are listening.

ETA: I don't think anyone's offended by the hand gesture. What's offensive is that we are expected not to react when someone is saying "I'm a proud racist".

But even according to the ADL this simply isn't true. They're not telling you that they are racist, they are telling you that they think they can upset you and make you call them racist thus exposing you as a "crazy libtard."

 

[uke2se]

But even according to the ADL this simply isn't true. They're not telling you that they are racist, they are telling you that they think they can upset you and make you call them racist thus exposing you as a "crazy libtard."

And the people who do this are all racists. Thus, they are telling me they are a part of the people who would do this and thus racists.

 

[Ziggurat]

Are you worried about non-racist people being called racist because they use the ok-gesture?

It's already happened, multiple times.

 

[luchog]

I just realised that I have probably offended a bunch of people and marked myself as a member of some offensive group by facepalming.

The term you're looking for here is ostritch.

The problem with all this is it allows anyone on the "Pretending to be a racist to troll people" to "actual racist" spectrum to ruin anything by making it "about" racism.

It also enables racists to "hide in plain site", by taking the "it's just a joke, u mad bro?" tack when called on and penalized their racism. Helped out by the legions of ostriches and apologists who apparently think that "pretending" to align one's self with brutally violent white nationalist oppression is the height of hilarity.

At a certain point we have to at least put the option of taking some of this stuff back on the table, instead of the "Well they touched it, it's ruined forever now" mentality.

Problem is, symbols have meanings, that's the purpose of symbols. And cultural memes are very difficult to change, because they are irrational asociations, not rational ones. In a highly rational society, it should be possible to separate the symbol from a particular use of it, depending on context. But human nation is not rational, and the more emotive an association, the more entrenched it becomes in the popular psyche, and the more difficult to dislodge. The swastika/suawastika/manju/ect. has a history stretching back multiple thousands of years, over nearly the entirety of world culture. Yet in only a few years, it's association with one of the most brutally murderous cultures in world history has created an extremely emotional response to it that pervades world culture, and will likely take centuries to divorce the symbol from, if it ever can be divorced.

The cross is also a symbol that occurs in many cultures worldwide, but its association with Christianity, even in many cultures that do not have a strong tradition of Christianity as a presence, is nearly ubiquitous and insurmountable if one wishes to use it in another context divorced from that meaning.

"Taking back" a symbol, or word, or gesture is fine in theory, and there are certainly cases where it has been done; but it's not something that can be done by fiat, and certainly not overnight. It typically takes years, decades, in some cases centuries, for meanings to change, depending on how strongly the meanings and symbols are linked, and the emotional resonances they induce.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Yep like the christchurch shooter. He really triggered the libs.

yes, as I said, some stupid far Right morons have fallen for it too and so use it thinking that it means something, it doesn't. Actual White Supremacist groups don't use it and even the ADL says that most of those WS's that do are doing it to get a rise out of Librels, not because it's a real symbol.

The ADL also point out that most of those posing with it in that way aren't even WS, they are just right wing and think it is funny to get the Libs upset.

Go and read what the ADL has to say, and stop falling for the hoax.

 

[uke2se]

yes, as I said, some stupid far Right morons have fallen for it too and so use it thinking that it means something, it doesn't. Actual White Supremacist groups don't use it and even the ADL says that most of those WS's that do are doing it to get a rise out of Lebs, not because it's a real symbol.

The ADL also point out that most of those posing with it in that way aren't even WS, they are just right wing and think it is funny to get the Libs upset.

Go and read what the ADL has to say, and stop falling for the hoax.

Not to defend the Christchurch terrorist, but he's not a special case of right wing moron. He's fairly representative of a lot of the extreme right. He was part of the forum that coined the ok-"hoax". The only thing that makes him different is that he's acted on his beliefs. Not all of them have. Yet.

Also, the libs aren't upset because the right wingers flash the ok sign. They are upset because people like you keep telling them to ignore it.

 

[Belz...]

And the people who do this are all racists.

Trolls are racist by definition. You heard it here first, folks!

 

[PhantomWolf]

And the people who do this are all racists. Thus, they are telling me they are a part of the people who would do this and thus racists.

Again, you are pulling stuff out of your butt. Not all right wingers are racist, and not all right wingers who have heard that if you do an okay symbol in a photo and post it that it'll upset the liberals are racists either. Even the ADL isn't making that claim.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I guess I'm just not getting the overall point of a symbol which denotes racism... when it's used by already known/established racists.

"It's racist but only when racists do it" strikes me as like... the least useful thing ever.

 

[ponderingturtle]

But even according to the ADL this simply isn't true. They're not telling you that they are racist, they are telling you that they think they can upset you and make you call them racist thus exposing you as a "crazy libtard."

Exactly like those sieg heiling and such. All just trolling. The 6 million more chant was also just trolling the libs.

All performative white supremacy is just trolling because it is looking for a reaction.

 

[uke2se]

Again, you are pulling stuff out of your butt. Not all right wingers are racist, and not all right wingers who have heard that if you do an okay symbol in a photo and post it that it'll upset the liberals are racists either. Even the ADL isn't making that claim.

Not all right wingers flash the ok-sign. Those that do are racist, or at least ok with being perceived as such.

Also, ADL isn't the president of the left wing. They have their opinions, I have mine.

 

[ponderingturtle]

yes, as I said, some stupid far Right morons have fallen for it too and so use it thinking that it means something, it doesn't. Actual White Supremacist groups don't use it and even the ADL says that most of those WS's that do are doing it to get a rise out of Librels, not because it's a real symbol.

So what? How much of the violence are we seeing from "actual white supremacist groups" vs self radicalized white supremacists who like to troll the libs?

The internet is changing everything and joining a mailing list just isn't important anymore.

The ADL also point out that most of those posing with it in that way aren't even WS, they are just right wing and think it is funny to get the Libs upset.

Hey if they want to be seen as white supremacists why should I argue with them? Throw off an ironic Sieg Heil and be done.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Not to defend the Christchurch terrorist, but he's not a special case of right wing moron. He's fairly representative of a lot of the extreme right. He was part of the forum that coined the ok-"hoax". The only thing that makes him different is that he's acted on his beliefs. Not all of them have. Yet.

Exactly he was just a troll and not a real white supremacist. The violence is just mental illness and unrelated to his trolling.

Honestly outside of the shooting what is the evidence that this guy was a real white supremacist and not just some troll?

 

[uke2se]

I guess I'm just not getting the overall point of a symbol which denotes racism... when it's used by already known/established racists.

"It's racist but only when racists do it" strikes me as like... the least useful thing ever.

When used in context, for example in a tweet criticizing immigration, it's a wink-wink to fellow racists that goes over the head of people not in the know.