• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Face, meet leopard. Leopard, meet face.

She knew what he was selling. She knew that what he was selling would have horribly negative effects on millions of people. Knowingly choosing to let millions die or be hurt so you can have a baby is some seriously ◊◊◊◊◊◊-up evil!

How would she have known this? her 'news' outlet of choice is likely to have been Fox. She certainly wouldn't haveheard it there. Many other networks wouldn't have mentioned it.

I suspect that very large numbers of Trump voters are fairly moral, compassionate people. They've just been lied to all their lives by insitutions designed to cause people to make decisions against their best interests.

Billions of dollars have been spent by very, very clever poweerful people to achieve this end. How one person is supposed to see though that I have no idea. I suspect the majority of people on this board are of above average intelligence curiosity and education. I think it is beneficial to try to imaginwe the media ecosystem in which the less well educated and informed live and work out what seems reasonable from that point of view.

If only there were some legislation restricting money in politics and, perhaps some reuirement for news agencies to balances in their reporting. You could call it something cool, like a 'doctrine of fairness'.
 
Last edited:
She knew what he was selling. She knew that what he was selling would have horribly negative effects on millions of people. Knowingly choosing to let millions die or be hurt so you can have a baby is some seriously ◊◊◊◊◊◊-up evil!
How would she have known this? her 'news' outlet of choice is likely to have been Fox. She certainly wouldn't haveheard it there. Many other networks wouldn't have mentioned it.
If we are talking about the woman who worked for the forestry service and voted for Trump because he promised free IVF....

I don't know how she would have heard "Trump is bad", but in various articles I have read about her, she admitted she didn't like Trump for various reasons (so she was getting at least some of her information from other sources) and voted for him anyways.

I suspect that very large numbers of Trump voters are fairly moral, compassionate people. They've just been lied to all their lives by insitutions designed to cause people to make decisions against their best interests.
For anyone wants to claim "The MAGAchud have just been lied to by Fox/etc."... keep in mind that a lot of that is people actually seek out news that confirms their pre-existing biases.
Billions of dollars have been spent by very, very clever poweerful people to achieve this end. How one person is supposed to see though that I have no idea.
Alternative sources are easy to find (and cheap/free). Heck, even Fox News itself had (in the past), had a few commentators who have been critical of Trump (mostly the ones that do the actual news, rather than the "talking heads".
If only there were some legislation restricting money in politics and, perhaps some reuirement for news agencies to balances in their reporting. You could call it something cool, like a 'doctrine of fairness'.
The problem with any sort of requirement like that is that it can get abused.

Imagine if that were the law now? How long before Trump and the repubublicans require Trump's "Alternative facts" to be carried on the major networks with the same emphasis as, you know, real facts.
 
The sympathy for people being fooled by Trump belongs in 2020/2021, not 2025.

They’ve seen in him in action. They saw him fail to keep numerous campaign promises. They saw him badly mishandle the Covid response. They saw him send an armed mob to storm the Capitol. They heard all the terrible things he said he was explicitly going to do this time while campaigning last year.

Willful ignorance only gets you so far, and we past that point a while ago.
 
Last edited:
The sympathy for people being fooled by Trump belongs in 2020/2021, not 2025.

They’ve seen in him in action. They saw him fail to keep numerous campaign promises. They saw him badly mishandle the Covid response. They saw him send an armed mob to storm the Capitol. They heard all the terrible things he said he was explicitly going to do this time while campaigning last year.

Willful ignorance only gets you so far, and we past that point a while ago.

Wasn't his first term reported as a rousing success by Fox et al.?

I get what you're saying, I just think you're wildly underestimating the effect that carefully scripted, directed propaganda can have on people. I don't believe it's as easy to escape from as you think it is. Especiall without a decent education in how to spot ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊.
 
Who is using three as an excessive number?

Having 2.5% of the entire workforce having p-cards seems like it's probably excessive. With 1,200 clinics and 12,000 cards, that's 10 per clinic... and yeah, that seems excessive to me.

The article mentioned needing things for emergencies as a primary reason to not reduce the number of purchasers from 12,000 to ~500. But most clinics aren't hospitals, and most of them aren't dealing with emergency situations. Those happen at hospitals, of which there are 170.
Why?

2.5% means that in a department of 100 people, only 2-3 have the ability to make purchases this way. Probably the manager, an assistant and a clerical lead. Given that a 100 person department is rather large, it means that a (still not small) department of 40 people would have one person able to make this type of purchase.

I know you are an advocate of a centralized bureaucracy for purchasing and accounting, but in practice that's not conducive to smooth and efficient operation.

Also, "emergency situations" in the context of purchasing for a department does not correlate to "medical emergency." It corelates to "we need this ASAP." It's not something that happens at hospitals and not clinics. Someone may have in another post mentioned risks to patient health, but that's not really the right parameter. And the situation at the VA is not unusual.

In the early 90s, I worked on a large field water quality modeling project. We manufactured a great deal of our field sampling equipment and installations. Consequently, we used an awful lot of hardware: nuts, bolts, cable, hose clamps, lumber, etc. This was pre-P-Card, so we had to use a different method. We had a standing PO at several places...TSC (Tractor Supply Company) was one. My boss would just send one of us over to get what we needed. Each month, the bill was sent in and paid. Pretty much the same thing as a P-Card.

The alternatives would be:
  1. Make a new PO every time we needed a few bolts. then wait a day or two for purchasing to process the order and then some vendor to ship them to us,
  2. Find the one person in the building you think should have a P-Card and drag them to the hardware store. Which would likely mean that you are using a professional engineer as a gopher.
  3. Ask staff to make the purchases on their personal credit cards and then submit paperwork for reimbursement. Of course, the employee would not be compensated for any interest accrued waiting for purchasing to process the reimbursement. And I've seen reimbursements take over thirty days.
And that's just for stuff we need in the office/lab/shop. this was a field project where we were making our installations 200 miles away from the office. This is where P-Cards/T-Cards are really important. You don't always know what you are going to need until you start work.

Now, applying that to a hospital, clinic or office. Purchase orders are great for things that you know you are going to need in advance. They absolutely suck for unanticipated needs. Pulling some department head out to Wal-Mart to buy some widget is like pulling the P.E. out to the hardware store to buy bolts. It's stupid, wasteful, and inefficient.

I know I'm going on about this in excessive detail, but it's really annoying when someone who is probably more familiar with the need for office supplies thinks they know how non-office environments should work.

The DOGE approach on this falls into the category of "Break Things." And it's a stupid idiotic approach that should almost never be used. It originates from Facebook, who abandoned it in 2014. Is it used here out of malice? Probably not, unless they are deliberately trying to set departments up to fail. More like out of incompetence and laziness. There is an approach along the lines of "lets change/remove this and see who screams" rather than doing the job correctly and investigating what something does, who uses it, and then developing a better way of accomplishing the task if needed.
 
How would she have known this? her 'news' outlet of choice is likely to have been Fox.

The operative words being "of choice". The woman has agency, and is accountable for her media consumption choices. Fox News' biases are not some new or obscure thing; they have been widespread public knowledge for decades. How she would have known this would be to click her remote one or two channels up or down to see what CNN, NBC, or MSNBC were covering. Failing to do her homework is on her, and, insofar as voters have a responsibility to stay informed, it *is* a failure.
 
Last edited:
Seems to me that before you destroy anything, you should look long and hard about why it was there in the first place. Were the amount of cards already looked at, and it was determined that it was an optimally efficient distribution? Or it organically ended up working smoothly, with no reason to reduce it, and Muskrat and the Minions just ◊◊◊◊◊◊ it all up to no benefit?
 
Seems to me that before you destroy anything, you should look long and hard about why it was there in the first place. Were the amount of cards already looked at, and it was determined that it was an optimally efficient distribution? Or it organically ended up working smoothly, with no reason to reduce it, and Muskrat and the Minions
just ◊◊◊◊◊◊ it all up to no benefit?
How much is it gonna cost to fix what they've ◊◊◊◊◊◊ up?

Efficiency my left testicle.
 
.
The operative words being "of choice". The woman has agency, and is accountable for her media consumption choices. Fox News' biases are not some new or obscure thing; they have been widespread public knowledge for decades. How she would have known this would be to click her remote one or two channels up or down to see what CNN, NBC, or MSNBC were covering. Failing to do her homework is on her, and, insofar as voters have a responsibility to stay informed, it *is* a failure.
Also, Dump was a horrible person from the start. She ended up in the cult because none of the horrible things he did and said were dealbreakers to her. Mysogony, racism, bragging about SA, invciting violence, all perfectly okay with her.
 
Last edited:
Wasn't his first term reported as a rousing success by Fox et al.?

I get what you're saying, I just think you're wildly underestimating the effect that carefully scripted, directed propaganda can have on people. I don't believe it's as easy to escape from as you think it is. Especiall without a decent education in how to spot ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊.

Sorry, I just don't agree. As Reformed Offlian pointed out, these people have agency and choices, and there exists more than enough easily-accessible information about Trump and his agenda to make informed decisions. They chose otherwise. That's on them, as is every consequence of their decision.

This woman did not care about the harm to other people Trump would and is causing. She only cares now because she is being harmed. My empathy is reserved for the people that she did not care would be harmed, not for her.
 
Seems to me that before you destroy anything, you should look long and hard about why it was there in the first place.
AKA - Chesterton's Fence

I've always phrased it as "Before you start thinking outside the box you have to understand why the box is there in the first place"
 
If we are talking about the woman who worked for the forestry service and voted for Trump because he promised free IVF....

I don't know how she would have heard "Trump is bad", but in various articles I have read about her, she admitted she didn't like Trump for various reasons (so she was getting at least some of her information from other sources) and voted for him anyways.


For anyone wants to claim "The MAGAchud have just been lied to by Fox/etc."... keep in mind that a lot of that is people actually seek out news that confirms their pre-existing biases.

Alternative sources are easy to find (and cheap/free). Heck, even Fox News itself had (in the past), had a few commentators who have been critical of Trump (mostly the ones that do the actual news, rather than the "talking heads".

The problem with any sort of requirement like that is that it can get abused.

Imagine if that were the law now? How long before Trump and the repubublicans require Trump's "Alternative facts" to be carried on the major networks with the same emphasis as, you know, real facts.
Not very long at all. It was because of similar rules that limate change deniers got so much airtime on the BBC until very recently.
 
To be fair, one of the agencies squarely in the crosshairs is the Environmental Protection Agency, which was a Nixon creation.
True that. But he also made the dissolution of the USPS a party goal.
 
I am certainly able to conceive of a way *not* to do it.

Don't make sudden, disruptive changes to VA's legitimate and important work before conducting a proper audit of the relevant accounts and systems to identify actual problems.

Don't treat as a default position the hostile notion that there is rampant fraud, waste, and abuse in need of drastic remedy.

Don't entrust important decisions to 20-year-old techbros who know nothing about the organization, and who get their accounting advice from PriceWaterhouseGPT.

ETA: Oh, and don't fire the IG on day one.
But the whole principle is to move fast and break things, so what if the thing you break is veterans health care?
 
I agree in general, but I think the point the man was making was that if Trump wants to eliminate the program there's nothing the farmer can do about it, but for this program he's already done the work. He wants to get paid.
He shouldn't have bet the farm on a democrat winning the presidency. You place your bets and take your chances. He just happened to lose.
 

Back
Top Bottom