Explosion at the Boston Marathon.

[applecorped]

The first thing that I noticed is that idiot is in the middle of a dry grassland and he hasn't even cleared the immediate area. I tried to flag it on YouTube but they require a login to make a report. Is there any indication of which state that ******* is in? He needs to be reported and stopped before he starts yet another wildfire.

He started a wildfire previously?

 

[Alt+F4]

These bombs weren't really all that powerful in a relative sense.

Yes, but they were powerful for what they were intended for - causing severe injury to people in close contact with others.

 

[Alt+F4]

I tried to flag it on YouTube but they require a login to make a report. Is there any indication of which state that ******* is in? He needs to be reported and stopped before he starts yet another wildfire.

I have no idea what video you are referring to but if you think you saw a crime in a video what is the big deal to register and make a report about it?

 

[newyorkguy]

Yes, but they were powerful for what they were intended for - causing severe injury to people in close contact with others.

They were what we used to call in the Army anti-personnel mines. Claymores were loaded with BBs too.

 

[Sam.I.Am]

Yes, but they were powerful for what they were intended for - causing severe injury to people in close contact with others.

Oh, without a doubt. I was responding to someone saying that the fireworks wouldn't have had enough gunpowder in them for the devices that they made. I was pointing out that given what is known regarding the after effects of the explosions that not as much gunpowder as he apparently thinks was required to do what we know was done.

 

[Dan O.]

I have no idea what video you are referring to but if you think you saw a crime in a video what is the big deal to register and make a report about it?

Are you stalking me? If you were reading this thread you would have seen that Sam posted a video in the post immediately prior to mine of which I quoted a paragraph from including a back link to his post with the embedded video.

Being stupid is not necessarily a crime. Open fires may not be a crime in most states. Is posting such videos on YouTube a violation of their policies? I don't know because I am not a YouTube member. I don't believe Sam violated any JREF policies by linking to that video here and JREF wouldn't have any more info for tracking the videos source than I do. The may however be other posters on JREF that know mor about the jurisdictions and would have better advice on ho to stop this jerk.

 

[Magenta]

There's a federal tie in when you buy bulk black powder (the ATF gets involved in that you have to sign a form and provide an ID at the point of purchase) but any yahoo can go buy fireworks with cash and walk away with it with no paper trail. These guys apparently used a debit\credit card to buy the fireworks though so that was the trail that tied them back to the fireworks shop.

I suppose that if you didn't want to let anyone know that you had recently purchased ~3 lbs of black powder that the extra $125 would be worth it to cover your trail.

According to the article I linked earlier, they paid cash at the Phantom Fireworks store but the store kept some kind of record:

According to store records, Tsarnaev used $200 cash to purchase two “Lock and Load” kits, each with 24 shells, from the Phantom Fireworks store in Seabrook, N.H.,

[...]

When law enforcement officials confirmed the Tsarnaevs’ names on Friday, Weimer said, his company immediately went through its databases to determine if either had purchased a Phantom product.

They got a hit — Tamerlan Tsarnaev’s February purchase — and immediately contacted the FBI.

Older Marathon bombing suspect purchased fireworks at N.H. store, official says

 

[Sam.I.Am]

According to the article I linked earlier, they paid cash at the Phantom Fireworks store but the store kept some kind of record:

It's possible that because they were from Mass (which prohibits all types of fireworks) that they had to sign something saying that they wouldn't be used in Mass. But that would be at the local or state level (if it's required at all). It may just be something so that their lawyers have ginned up to point to when people shoot off fireworks in Mass. and get caught. A "Hey look, he said that he was not going to do that because he knew that it was illegal." type of thing. It's also telling that they went through their records on their own after the bombing suspects names were released.

ETA: A quick Google search tells me that there doesn't seem to be any state requirement to collect data on who purchases fireworks.

 

[newyorkguy]

I was responding to someone saying that the fireworks wouldn't have had enough gunpowder in them for the devices that they made...as much gunpowder as he apparently thinks was required to do what we know was done.

I was referring to statements in the news article I linked. I had no reason to doubt them.

What I don't quite understand is the video you linked. One pound of black powder going off. The volume of smoke looked comparable to each of the Marathon explosions. Was that your point?

I'm wondering if you realize they also had a third pressure-cooker bomb and five pipe bombs (they threw them at police during the early morning car chase). So that's three pressure-cooker bombs and five pipe bombs with approximately three pounds of black power. About 150 grams a piece sounds like. Maybe a little more for the pressure-cooker bomb, a little less for the pipe bombs. Is that enough? I dunno. Based on the smoke produced by one pound it doesn't semm like it but I've never made a bomb in my life.

So how much black powder do you estimate each of the two pressure-cooker bombs would've required? You're saying three pounds was enough so you must have a pretty clear idea, Sam?

 

[quadraginta]

There are 4 shops along the same highway in the Seabrook area and one more on the state line by the coast aptley named "Foreworks Over the Border".

I wonder if we are going to see an increase in vigilantism with people staking out those shops and notifying the MSP when someone drives in from Massachusetts and makes a large purchase.

That ought to keep 'em busy at any rate, since that's the reason those stores are there in the first place.

I'd be a bit surprised if $200 was even a particularly large purchase. I'd have pegged it at somewhere below average.

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

There's also the matter that the roughly three pounds of black powder they acquired from the two fireworks kits would not have been enough to arm the eight bombs they apparently had.

There's more to this it seems.

<snip>

Three pounds would go a long way for anti-personnel devices.

But ...

Is there any reason to think that was the only purchase they made, or is it just the only one we know about so far?

 

[rwguinn]

I was referring to statements in the news article I linked. I had no reason to doubt them.

What I don't quite understand is the video you linked. One pound of black powder going off. The volume of smoke looked comparable to each of the Marathon explosions. Was that your point?

I'm wondering if you realize they also had a third pressure-cooker bomb and five pipe bombs (they threw them at police during the early morning car chase). So that's three pressure-cooker bombs and five pipe bombs with approximately three pounds of black power. About 150 grams a piece sounds like. Maybe a little more for the pressure-cooker bomb, a little less for the pipe bombs. Is that enough? I dunno. Based on the smoke produced by one pound it doesn't semm like it but I've never made a bomb in my life.

So how much black powder do you estimate each of the two pressure-cooker bombs would've required? You're saying three pounds was enough so you must have a pretty clear idea, Sam?

Less smoke if you contain it in a pressure vessel.
I us 80 grains of BP to put a 230 grain bullet at about 1800 ft/sec. A 1100 grain hunting load pretty much hurts at both ends of the barrel.
I have seen 200 grains go off in a brass flintlock priming horn. Not pretty-shrapnel everywhere inside the cage, extremely loud boom.

 

[newyorkguy]

Is there any reason to think that was the only purchase they made, or is it just the only one we know about so far?

The only one that is known I think.

Anybody ballsy enough to log onto the al-Qaeda site? See how much black powder they recommend?

Not me!!

 

[newyorkguy]

Anybody ballsy stupid enough to log onto the al-Qaeda site? See how much black powder they recommend?

ft

 

[newyorkguy]

I didn't log on to the al-Qaeda site but I found someone who did. From a site called "Ace of Spades HQ" Link-

Via The Jawa Report, an Al Qaeda DIY bomb-making recipe specifies just this type of device. The below is taken from Samir Khan's jihadi magazine "Inspire."

ix pounds of smokeless powder, Christmas lights and battery operated clocks which were apparently intended to create a timing and triggering device of some type, sugar, shrapnel, pressure cooker, shot guns shells that were in the process of being dismantled to obtain their raw explosives.

...

The explosion that results from this device is a mechanical one. It results from the pressure caused by the gases and therefore it only works if contained in a high pressure environment. So you may use iron pipes, pressure cookers, fire extinguishers, or empty propane canisters....

The pressurized cooker is the most effective method.

Six pounds? For each?

That's a lot more than I would've thought. Maybe it's wrong.

 

[Dan O.]

It's possible that because they were from Mass (which prohibits all types of fireworks) that they had to sign something saying that they wouldn't be used in Mass. But that would be at the local or state level (if it's required at all). It may just be something so that their lawyers have ginned up to point to when people shoot off fireworks in Mass. and get caught. A "Hey look, he said that he was not going to do that because he knew that it was illegal." type of thing. It's also telling that they went through their records on their own after the bombing suspects names were released.

ETA: A quick Google search tells me that there doesn't seem to be any state requirement to collect data on who purchases fireworks.

It might be a case of being pro-active on their own. When someone comes in and makes a cash purchase, at the end of the sale the clerk says they need to see identification. If the buyer refuses they call the state patroll and report the suspiscious buyer otherwise the information just goes into the records.

Another possibility is that they are recording the license plate numbers with the sales. I believe both suspects license numbers had been released. They may also do internal auditing to watch for large repeat purchases. This has the potential of catching the bad guys without Interfeering with sales.

 

[WildCat]

It might be a case of being pro-active on their own. When someone comes in and makes a cash purchase, at the end of the sale the clerk says they need to see identification. If the buyer refuses they call the state patroll and report the suspiscious buyer otherwise the information just goes into the records.

Another possibility is that they are recording the license plate numbers with the sales. I believe both suspects license numbers had been released. They may also do internal auditing to watch for large repeat purchases. This has the potential of catching the bad guys without Interfeering with sales.

I read last week that that store scans driver's licenses with every sale. It doesn't store a picture of the DL, it uses OCR or something to store the name, address, and DL number.

 

[newyorkguy]

It also might not have anything to do with trying to prevent terrorism.

The store says Tsarnaev took the 'Buy One Get One Free' option. Maybe if you do that you have to fill out a form. To prove to 'corporate' there really was a customer.

It's a $200 item.

 

[Sam.I.Am]

I was referring to statements in the news article I linked. I had no reason to doubt them.

What I don't quite understand is the video you linked. One pound of black powder going off. The volume of smoke looked comparable to each of the Marathon explosions. Was that your point?

I'm wondering if you realize they also had a third pressure-cooker bomb and five pipe bombs (they threw them at police during the early morning car chase). So that's three pressure-cooker bombs and five pipe bombs with approximately three pounds of black power. About 150 grams a piece sounds like. Maybe a little more for the pressure-cooker bomb, a little less for the pipe bombs. Is that enough? I dunno. Based on the smoke produced by one pound it doesn't semm like it but I've never made a bomb in my life.

So how much black powder do you estimate each of the two pressure-cooker bombs would've required? You're saying three pounds was enough so you must have a pretty clear idea, Sam?

Without going into details that may violate the MA I have made homemade M80's in my misspent youth many, many years ago. It takes about 1 regular coffee scoop worth to make one that will set off car alarms over half a block away. That was probably no more than about 5 grams worth of black powder at a guess (muzzle loaders normally use about 2.5 grams per shot normally as a comparison). These guys had over 1300 grams (19,500 grains) to play with. Note that 15 grains = 1 gram.

[self deleted on retrospect]

So yes. 3 lbs of gunpowder is more than enough to do what they are known at this time to have done.

ETA: This is 1 lb of black powder detonated 3 feet underground in a field



3 feet is a lot of dampening effect yet it still packs quite a punch on the surface as you see the car tire flies about 15 feet up into the air.

As to my own qualifications (excluding my misspent youth) I was a conventional weapons handling supervisor when I was in the navy and as such I did have juuust a bit of training on various types of explosives and their properties. Gunpowder was a part of the lessons learned portion of that qualification process even though it obviously wasn't going to be used on a submarine. I had to read up on the history of prior explosives accidents and their causes and have a good grasp on what not to do in all sorts of situations as well as knowing how explosive devices work in general as well as the specifics of my own weapons load out.

 

[newyorkguy]

As to my own qualifications (excluding my misspent youth) I was a conventional weapons handling supervisor when I was in the navy and as such I did have juuust a bit of training on various types of explosives and their properties. Gunpowder was a part of the lessons learned portion of that qualification process even though it obviously wasn't going to be used on a submarine. I had to read up on the history of prior explosives accidents and their causes and have a good grasp on what not to do in all sorts of situations as well as knowing how explosive devices work in general as well as the specifics of my own weapons load out.

Okay so long story short you're saying about 225 grams or half a pound ought to do it for each one. al-Qaeda apparently recommends six pounds but half a pound works for me. Thanks.