Expelled from Expelled (Richard Dawkins got in!)

[bokonon]

I googled "expelled RSVP"

Yes, that's what I was doing earlier today, in post #64. But the only way I knew to include "RSVP" in the search is because I already knew what I was looking for. Some reporter who just has PZ Myers' story about signing up on the website has no reason to search for RSVP. Searching for "expelled tickets" or "expelled preview" doesn't get you there.

 

[articulett]

Apparently people are signing up under the name PZ Myers all over.

 

[Olowkow]

Hope no one else has posted this already. Priceless conversation.

http://richarddawkins.net/article,2...pelled-from-Expelled,Richard-Dawkins-PZ-Myers

Dawkins is such a class act.

 

[articulett]

I did. But it bears reposting. I reposted your video on the Brendy thread.

 

[shadron]

http://www.coloradoconfidential.com/...o?diaryId=3229

I liked the review of the movie above. The author actually knows both sides of the issue and defines both ID and evolution. The author also points out that the movie audience will only be misled as to what evolution actually is, and that the movie never really defines ID. However, in a part where they are making fun of some (rather non-evolution theories) the author points out an irony...

I quite like this Dan Whipple

Yummy, yummy irony.

More please.

I might note that it is likely no longer proper to refer to it as the ID - Intelligent Design movement, as the Discovery Institute has apparently abandoned, or is at least low-balling the phrase, having been classified as essentially religious by a federal district court. In lieu of another catchy term, it is now "teach the controversy".

Here are a couple of references on their website about the PZ debacle. Of course, they make the worst possible light of the situation.

http://post-darwinist.blogspot.com/
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/03/richard_dawkins_worlds_most_fa.html

 

[articulett]

Ugh... they glorify the liars who obfuscate understanding to insert "magic" and vilify the truth tellers who have furthered and share some of the coolest information humans have come to know.

Creationists are stupid arrogant people and they create followers in their own image.

 

[MattusMaximus]

This morning, the website at this link still had a couple of upcoming events. As of now, they've all disappeared. I suspect the reason is the realization that there's been a copyright infringement on the Harvard Inner Life video, and they need to clean up that part of their act before showing it again.

PZ Myers appears to have a copy of the movie that they were giving away on a DVD at the screening, if I'm reading this entry correctly. He states:

Actually, the link where PZ Myers talks about the Inner Life footage is here...

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/03/still_straining_to_find_an_exc.php

It seems to me that the IDiots have shot themselves in the foot with this one. Do I smell a copyright infringement lawsuit in the works?

Wow, how cool would that be... for Harvard University to take down the Expelled crowd for the theft of intellectual property? My guess is that it's not quite the PR that Ben Stein and company were looking for

 

[bokonon]

Actually, the link where PZ Myers talks about the Inner Life footage is here...

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/03/still_straining_to_find_an_exc.php

It seems to me that the IDiots have shot themselves in the foot with this one. Do I smell a copyright infringement lawsuit in the works?

Wow, how cool would that be... for Harvard University to take down the Expelled crowd for the theft of intellectual property? My guess is that it's not quite the PR that Ben Stein and company were looking for

Blast you, cut & paste function! Thanks for the correction.

 

[MattusMaximus]

Blast you, cut & paste function! Thanks for the correction.

No problem

 

[fls]

Yes, that's what I was doing earlier today, in post #64. But the only way I knew to include "RSVP" in the search is because I already knew what I was looking for. Some reporter who just has PZ Myers' story about signing up on the website has no reason to search for RSVP. Searching for "expelled tickets" or "expelled preview" doesn't get you there.

I didn't start with that search (and I started my search before I had any more specific information than what the reporter printed). I started with "invited expelled movie". That got me the page that godless dave later referenced. At that point I started searching with other combinations of words on that page in order to look for cached versions of the RSVP page. I agree that it's reasonably easy to miss the cached page that lists the Mall of America screening, as including the term "rsvp" seems necessary to find it. But both you and I came up with that as a search term independently, so I'm not sure how unlikely it would be for someone else to also try that term. And regardless of whether or not one could easily find the RSVP page that includes the Mall of America screening, the page which extends an invitation to any member of the public who wants to sign up is easy to find - I came across it on several different and obvious (to me, anyway) searches (examples, "expelled movie tour" and "expelled movie free"). And even if you miss it on a google search (or don't want to bother with a google search), you can go straight to the horse's mouth and get it from PZ Myers.

I will concede that it is possible that she tried and was unable to find it. We've certainly all had the experience of being unable to find something on the internet (especially frustrating when it was something you stumbled across is an earlier search, so you know it's there somewhere ). But I can think of a couple of other easy ways to investigate these claims, and I'm not a reporter. I don't think she even tried. I realize that this is an unfounded assumption, though.

Linda

 

[bokonon]

I will concede that it is possible that she tried and was unable to find it. We've certainly all had the experience of being unable to find something on the internet (especially frustrating when it was something you stumbled across is an earlier search, so you know it's there somewhere ). But I can think of a couple of other easy ways to investigate these claims, and I'm not a reporter. I don't think she even tried. I realize that this is an unfounded assumption, though.

You're probably right, that she didn't try. I can imagine someone reporting the story being content to let both sides state their own case, without "editorializing" by trying to see whose story checks out, especially with a deadline.

Is it possible that the student (Stuart Blessman) really did have tickets to this event? The only "upcoming showing" that I can still find is the one at Biola University (which is probably postponed or cancelled too, and just hasn't gotten around to updating the web to reflect it). They say they're "no longer" mailing tickets, and you can pick them up at "Will Call." So it seems to me possible that he did have physical tickets, even though PZ Myers just had a promissory email. It's also possible that Blessman's recollection of the "disturbance" is more of a false memory than an outright lie. Myers says he left the line to get copies of the release form, and others in line asked him for copies. I can see witnessing this interaction and thinking nothing of it, then spinning it later into a "hustling or bothering several invited attendees" memory when it became significant. Of course, there is still the possibility that he's a "shameful liar," but I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, and say he's merely mistaken.

It would be nice if reporters could sort it all out for us, but then we wouldn't get as much practice exercising our critical thinking skills.

 

[jli]

Yes, but...."Clinton"?

Well it´s not a name that I would give to my son. Not even if a numerologist told me to . On the other hand it came in handy, as the controllers didn´t realize that Richard was comming.

 

[m_huber]

You're probably right, that she didn't try. I can imagine someone reporting the story being content to let both sides state their own case, without "editorializing" by trying to see whose story checks out, especially with a deadline.

Is it possible that the student (Stuart Blessman) really did have tickets to this event? The only "upcoming showing" that I can still find is the one at Biola University (which is probably postponed or cancelled too, and just hasn't gotten around to updating the web to reflect it). They say they're "no longer" mailing tickets, and you can pick them up at "Will Call." So it seems to me possible that he did have physical tickets, even though PZ Myers just had a promissory email. It's also possible that Blessman's recollection of the "disturbance" is more of a false memory than an outright lie. Myers says he left the line to get copies of the release form, and others in line asked him for copies. I can see witnessing this interaction and thinking nothing of it, then spinning it later into a "hustling or bothering several invited attendees" memory when it became significant. Of course, there is still the possibility that he's a "shameful liar," but I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, and say he's merely mistaken.

It would be nice if reporters could sort it all out for us, but then we wouldn't get as much practice exercising our critical thinking skills.

No, it is not possible that the student had a ticket. If you read the various blog entries already linked, you will see that absolutely nobody had a ticket. They were sent an email after confirmation that apparently said in large, friendly letters, "No ticket required!" It is nothing but spin to say that PZ Meyers did not have a ticket.

 

[TeslaPRG]

This is so sweet! If any of you have not done so there is some great commentary on several of the skeptical podcasts. I wish could have been there.
This is rib crunching funny.

 

[bokonon]

No, it is not possible that the student had a ticket. If you read the various blog entries already linked, you will see that absolutely nobody had a ticket. They were sent an email after confirmation that apparently said in large, friendly letters, "No ticket required!" It is nothing but spin to say that PZ Meyers did not have a ticket.

I think I've probably read most of them. They confirm that it is possible (indeed, common) for people to attend without a ticket. They don't confirm that "absolutely nobody" had a ticket. The student says he did. One possibility is that he's lying through his teeth. Another is that some people did receive tickets. I can see a press kit being sent to a head pastor, with the hope of getting him to encourage his flock to attend, and I can see such a press kit including a pair of tickets just in case the head pastor still hasn't figured out internet access. They ARE pitching to neo-creationists, after all. I'm not saying that's what happened, but I don't think the facts available to me justify any "it is not possible" conclusion.

 

[m_huber]

I think I've probably read most of them. They confirm that it is possible (indeed, common) for people to attend without a ticket. They don't confirm that "absolutely nobody" had a ticket. The student says he did. One possibility is that he's lying through his teeth. Another is that some people did receive tickets. I can see a press kit being sent to a head pastor, with the hope of getting him to encourage his flock to attend, and I can see such a press kit including a pair of tickets just in case the head pastor still hasn't figured out internet access. They ARE pitching to neo-creationists, after all. I'm not saying that's what happened, but I don't think the facts available to me justify any "it is not possible" conclusion.

Try this link. It is the account of one of the students with Dawkins and Meyers, and the author talks about not needing a ticket.

 

[bokonon]

Try this link. It is the account of one of the students with Dawkins and Meyers, and the author talks about not needing a ticket.

I'm not arguing that tickets were required for admission, merely that it's possible the student responsible for this story had one. He seems to be the source for all of the "atheist gate crashers" stories I've seen spreading around the net.

Obviously, if someone officially connected with the screening says the reason Myers was denied admission is because he had no ticket, that person would be telling a deliberate lie. Someone in an official capacity would know that no tickets were required.

Stuart Blessman is not officially connected with the movie. He says the managment of the theater, rather than the producer of the film, was responsible for ejecting Myers. Maybe he's lying, maybe he's mistaken but still giving what he believes is an accurate account of events. Myers says he was asked if he was PZ Myers, and was only ejected after confirming his identity; the student says the person who was ejected did not identify himself. The most generous assessment I can give the student on this point is that he's not remembering the event accurately, because I believe the most likely reason for ejecting Myers is because of who he is.

I haven't heard an official explanation from anyone connected with the movie. If you have one of those links, I'll be more likely to call "liar" there than I am on a guy who just happened to be standing in line, and has a chip on his shoulder when it comes to atheists.

ETA: The "official" site is running Blessman's email without comment here. Even if Blessman isn't deliberately lying, this is (another) deliberate lie by the producers of the movie.

 

[shadron]

What gets me is that Dawkins says (in the video he has done with PZ after the fact) that they use the Inner Life video, but they overdubbed the audio to say their own thing. It seems to me that that sort of egregious twisting of something they "borrowed" in the first place is so far beyond the pale as to very much bring the "bearing false witness" accusation home to roost with whatever theological people are behind it. Yeah, you can pretty much lie about denying science and so on, that's about sinning against pagans anyway, but to perform an act that is so blatantly ...errrr, no other word for it... sinful seems to me to be the fact that may get this third rate movie hung, not only legally, but from the pulpit.

But I've always been idealistic...

 

[bokonon]

I found a quote from one of the filmmakers, who says they DIDN'T borrow the cell animation from Harvard's Inner Life, but created it themselves:

The reason their side comment on the celluar animation is laughable is that they went to the bother of posting this video online without doing some simple fact-checking. Their accusations that we "borrowed" this piece from Harvard is completely unfounded. Our team created it for our film.

So now I have no idea why "technical difficulties" have caused them to pull all the showings that were scheduled for the next couple of weeks. Unless they're planning to make good on "we generated it ourselves" before anybody sees it again.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Odd that the cell animation film apparently looks exactly like Harvard's. I guess everyone who said so is a liar? Does anyone have a visual comparison yet?

I wanted to quote the claim that they made the animation:

3. The reason their side comment on the celluar animation is laughable is that they went to the bother of posting this video online without doing some simple fact-checking. Their accusations that we "borrowed" this piece from Harvard is completely unfounded. Our team created it for our film.

Posted by: Kevin Miller | March 22, 2008 at 06:05 PM

http://kevinwrites.typepad.com/otherwise_known_as_kevin_/2008/03/pathetic-and-sa.html