Executions in California cost $300 million each

[dtugg]

Let's say another $2 million for the initial appeal, $2 million for the appeal to the State Supreme Court and $2 million for everything else and that comes to a total of $7.25 million each. Where are the authors of this report getting $300 million for each execution?

They are taking the total costs for all death row inmates and dividing it by the number that have actually been executed. In other words, they are extremely dishonest.

 

[Alt+F4]

There is nothing inherently wrong with ridding the world of pieces of garbage. I would do it myself and not lose any sleep. The only problem is that some innocent people will also get executed.

I understand this. While I'm opposed to the death penalty I remember thinking the day Tim McVeigh was executed that the world was a better place because he was no longer in it.

 

[dtugg]

The death penalty almost certainly saves money on other cases. I wonder how many murderers have taken an plea bargain in order to avoid the death penalty thus saving the costs of a trial. Certainly, lots. Also, if you plead guilty, you get no appeals.

 

[BenBurch]

The death penalty almost certainly saves money on other cases. I wonder how many murderers have taken an plea bargain in order to avoid the death penalty thus saving the costs of a trial. Certainly, lots. Also, if you plead guilty, you get no appeals.

And the fear of death has prompted some innocent people to confess as well.

 

[Muldur]

Does this sum up your opinion? "Better 1000 innocent men die than one killer go free."

Total straw man. It is incredibly difficult to convict for First Degree Murder. I'm not saying the record is spotless, but the incidence of innocent convictions is miniscule.

 

[Muldur]

Yeah... so many first world countries share your view:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment#Contemporary_use

Argumentum ad majority or popularity fallacy (as you prefer).

What is right is not a matter of consensus, it simply IS.

 

[Muldur]

Actually it is barbaric relic from the 18th century B.C.

It should have no place in modern civilized nations. from here

Argumentum ad antiquity (inverted). The fallacy that "modern" = superior or conversely that "relic" (from the past) = inferior.

What is barbaric about justice?

Well I can see that you have never been to prison.

Guaranteed food? Check.

Guaranteed health care? Check.

Visits? Check.

I've never killed anyone or committed ANY serious crime, and I don't have those guaranteed to me by law...in fact I am taxed to PAY for those for people who (in the case of murderers) have so little regard for the sanctity of life that they deliberately and willfully took someone else's...frequently in very violent, painful and degrading ways.

Explain to me how it is just for good people to labor to support fiends?

And killing another person does not change that.

It ensures that that killer pays for his crime, in the same coin as that he stole: blood.

Well than lets have public executions, right outside the courthouse. We can select an executioner from the voting roles, invite school kids (so they can learn not to kill people), and make a day of it.

Don't have a problem with that at all. Great idea!

 

[Alt+F4]

Guaranteed food? Check.

Yes.

Guaranteed health care? Check.

No.

One inmate died of testicular cancer after doctors failed to diagnose the condition despite the inmate’s complaining of testicular pain for 17 months. Another inmate, suffering from severe abdominal pain, died after a five-week delay in being referred to a specialist. Another prisoner, suffering from extreme chest pain, died after eight hours passed without an evaluation by a specialist. Another inmate died of renal failure after being given medications that actually exacerbated his condition.

The deaths are not merely anecdotal. Statistics for the two years before the trial of the case in 2008 showed that 66 inmates succumbed to “preventable deaths” in 2006, 68 in 2007 — one preventable death every five to six days in both years. The number was “extremely high,” according to testimony by the former medical director for Illinois prisons.

and...

Routine medical care is routinely inadequate. Inmates with urgent care requests are seen only after a delay of two weeks or longer. When one prison was checked, only one-third of 300 inmates requesting urgent care had any appointment scheduled at all. Inadequate medical care in overcrowded facilities resulted, inevitably, in a high rate of infectious disease.

more here.... http://jostonjustice.blogspot.com/2011/05/confronting-grim-reality-of-california.html

 

[Biscuit]

Argumentum ad antiquity (inverted). The fallacy that "modern" = superior or conversely that "relic" (from the past) = inferior.

No I didn't. I never said things were better just different. Our thoughts on justice, crime, and punishment are far different from the 18th century B.C. Just look at the fact that we hide our capital punishment when for thousands of years it was a public spectacle.

What is barbaric about justice?

I disagree that capital punishment is just. I believe it is barbaric.

Guaranteed food? Check.

Guaranteed health care? Check.

Visits? Check.

Your understanding of life in jail is flawed.

I've never killed anyone or committed ANY serious crime, and I don't have those guaranteed to me by law...in fact I am taxed to PAY for those for people who (in the case of murderers) have so little regard for the sanctity of life that they deliberately and willfully took someone else's...frequently in very violent, painful and degrading ways.

Explain to me how it is just for good people to labor to support fiends?

Because as a modern society we believe in a thing called reform and redemption. We believe in forgiving.

It ensures that that killer pays for his crime, in the same coin as that he stole: blood.

Yet that changes nothing.

Don't have a problem with that at all. Great idea!

You talk tough.

 

[3point14]

The Death Penalty is entirely consistent with both justice AND a "first world country".

It is in fact imprisonment that is inherently UNjust. The murderer gets a guaranteed 3 meals a day, a home, health care, etc...all paid for in some part by crime victims (including the survivors of that person's crime). He gets to live, to laugh, to have visits with friends and family, etc.

The dead person has none of that. Nor do the relatives and friends of the dead person.

Death for death is the ONLY just sentence. It is proportional to the crime committed.

You're scary. I think that's revenge, not justice.

Personally, I think revenge should have no place in a system of justice.

(Yes, I know some think it's an inherent part of any justice system, but justice should be dispassionate)

 

[3point14]

Total straw man. It is incredibly difficult to convict for First Degree Murder. I'm not saying the record is spotless, but the incidence of innocent convictions is miniscule.

What rate of error is acceptable to you?

 

[3point14]

Argumentum ad antiquityIt ensures that that killer pays for his crime, in the same coin as that he stole: blood.

Very dramatic. Even makes it sound cool. I blame Hollywood.

 

[I Am The Scum]

I'm going to skip the discussion where people label various practices "justice" and "not justice" arbitrarily. Nobody ever bothers to define these terms, so I'd rather not waste my time.

Muldur, I'm curious what your ideal criminal justice system would look like. Your main argument in favor of the death penalty is that it should not be the case that the innocent taxpayers shoulder the burden of the murderer's incarceration. However, this reasoning would also apply to pretty much every other crime imaginable. Why should I have to pay for the three square meals of the car thief? Why should your taxes go towards putting a roof over the head of the head of the drug dealer? I'm assuming you don't think that these people should all be put to death the moment the jury returns a guilty verdict (correct me if this is how you really feel), so what should we actually do?

 

[Biscuit]

A car thief should pay in the same coin he stole: Cars.

He should have his car stolen. If he doesn't have one, possibly the reason he was stealing a car to begin with, the state should buy him one and then steal it from him.

 

[Newtons Bit]

A car thief should pay in the same coin he stole: Cars.

He should have his car stolen. If he doesn't have one, possibly the reason he was stealing a car to begin with, the state should buy him one and then steal it from him.

Ooh, ooh, if he doesn't have a car then he should go to debtors prison until he buys one!

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Which can't possibly be true. To accrue that much in legal fees you'd have a lawyer working on your case 365 days a year, 24 hour a day at $1,370/hr for 25 years straight.

That number is complete, utter, 100%, bovine excrement.

But isn't the OP talking about total costs to the state (or federal) government? Why would you assume the ONLY costs are fees of one single lawyer?

 

[BenBurch]

Total straw man. It is incredibly difficult to convict for First Degree Murder. I'm not saying the record is spotless, but the incidence of innocent convictions is miniscule.

Not what we found here in Illinois.

 

[WildCat]

But isn't the OP talking about total costs to the state (or federal) government? Why would you assume the ONLY costs are fees of one single lawyer?

Because we know the cost of incarceration, and it is anywhere from $20,000-$40,000/year. Which would mean the other $11,970,000 has to be something else, like legal fees.

As I said, the number is obvious hogwash. They allocated all the costs of the 714 who weren't executed to the 13 who were. Do you think that nothing at all has been spent on the 714?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Because we know the cost of incarceration, and it is anywhere from $20,000-$40,000/year. Which would mean the other $11,970,000 has to be something else, like legal fees.

But again, the total cost of the appeals process for death row inmates isn't composed solely of one lawyer's fees. I don't find the figure to be incredible.

And sadly, I don't think spending that much extra money makes it proportionately less fallible a process. And we really really really don't want to put to death innocent people (or even people not guilty of *that* capital offense).

 

[dtugg]

A car thief should pay in the same coin he stole: Cars.

He should have his car stolen. If he doesn't have one, possibly the reason he was stealing a car to begin with, the state should buy him one and then steal it from him.

A kidnapper should have to pay for taking someone's freedom away by having his freedom taken away. Wait, that is what actually happens. I guess that means society has stooped to the level of the kidnapper.