(Ex JREF Admin thread): Comments on recent reports

[a_unique_person]

I understand, but it was a false analogy (organization to ethnicity) so it wasn't going to be seen as a joke by everyone. It doesn't help that the other thread had fallen down on the page.

Yes, I should have made it a post on that thread. An error. It was not meant to be a joke, either. Skeptic and Co have accused me of the most gross libels, on no evidence at all.

 

[a_unique_person]

I understand, but it was a false analogy (organization to ethnicity) so it wasn't going to be seen as a joke by everyone. It doesn't help that the other thread had fallen down on the page.

The UN is staffed by a lot of good people. Some of the best UN people died in Iraq to help the US. To equate the UN to dog **** is a pretty gross libel to me.

 

[Chaos]

Ok I choose to address Chaos' post for obvious reasons. The whole thing has started getting on my nerves seriously.

The whole thing ("Skeptic" et al) has been getting on my nerves since September ´03. I see this bruhaha here as the proverbial thunderstorm that clears the air for a while.

Let me ask you something Chaos, do you seriously believe that some of us here are not in the position to tell the difference between " criticizing Israel" and " spewing hatred against Israelis" with the help of tiny snide remarks and pretentious balanced and serious posts?


Some people do not tell the difference - I don´t know if they are unable or merely unwilling to.
I know that this is the sort of behaviour directed at me, without any rational reason; since I cannot read minds, I can only guess about why this is done.

Do you seriously believe that comments like this:
can persuade anybody rational in this forum that constitute "criticism to Israel" and not blunt demonstration of contempt towards the Israelis?

Do you seriously believe that in order for a comment to be considered as antisemitic must contain a declaration of hatred towards the jews?

No it's not only the choice of words that makes a statement antisemitic but the most important is the point that tries to make and the conclusions that asks the reader to drag from it.

Read the brilliant snide remark I quoted. I wanted to throw up when I read it.

Much like want to throw up every other time I read the feces that "Skeptic" and his stooges write about people who disagree with them. Please don´t take a lack of protest as agreement; I have only so much spare time.

From that point of view in this forum I have read some of the most antisemitic crap I have read in my whole life and those who compose them systematically should be ashamed for themselves.

Let me make a few things clear:
None of the stuff I´ve posted in this thread or in the similar one in the Forum Admin section is any criticism of either your person, your character, your opinions or your discussion behavior. I explicitly do not include you among the people who, IMHO, have a serious civility deficit. Actually, as the whole Middle East topic is concerned, I consider you one of the most civil and rational people I disagree with (and certainly more civil and rational than some I agree with).

Also, if you go back and take a look at my posts about the matter, you will find that I criticize the actions of the Israeli government, the armed forces, and/or specific persons. How this can be understood as hatred of all jews, I do not know; as I said, I cannot read minds. When I see people like "Skeptic" make sweeping judgements that defy logic and reason, like that I am an antisemite (because I criticize institutions he agrees with, and/or because I am German), or that the UN is an organization of child abusers, I can only conclude that either he is an idiot (which, I admit, he isn´t), he is deranged, or he is intentionally spreading lies. Pick your explanation; I have picked mine.

 

[zenith-nadir]

I do not want this thread to be about a particular poster (or posters) or a specific post. Please keep to generalities

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat

Edited by Darat: 

Content removed.

Now you're throwing a temper tantrum because your post was edited. Well, how mature. I can only mourn what a loss you'll be to the forum as a whole.

You still here?
sigh, more farewell performances than cher...
Can I have your car spot?

ZN is a liar, as is Skeptic, as is Mycroft, and RIkzilla.

What is not expected is the censoring of one of ZN's reasonable posts in a discussion about censorship. Darat - please do not censor these people especially in this thread.
CBL

Anybody give me one good reason why the ADMINISTRATORS of JREF are censoring my posts and allowing THE JREF TOLLS free reign to smear me and taunt me in a MODERATED thread. Anyone? Especially after SAID ADMINISTRATOR posted:

This is a moderated thread
Any posts, comments etc. that are considered to be inappropriate may be deleted, edited or moved to another thread at my discretion.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat

I guess what Darat finds inappropriate does not include smearing and taunting of Zenith-Nadir. That is why I have chosen to leave JREF. Even the ADMINISTRATORS back a_u_p, the fool and cleon et al.

Lets see how long this reality stays until it is REMOVED. Good riddance JREF.

 

[a_unique_person]

Let's get some things staright here.

Although I am not a great admirer of Zenith-Nadir and I am the one who suspected him as a sock when he appeared in the forum I find TERRIBLY INJUST to accuse him of anything just because he posts facts that some people don't like.

Zenith-Nadir rarely gets involved in flame wars although he has been called names repeatedly and he has never responded to this name calling. All his posts, whether we like it or not are well documented and well writen.

If some people find the facts that Z-N posts annoying then he/ she should put him on ignore but accusing him just out of principle and just because some people feel the need to be balanced is ridiculous and cowardice.

It reminds me of the hypocrites that feel the need to start accusing Israel about everything in order to admit the misfortunes that Jews have suffered.

Is it THAT HARD to admit that a jewish person is right EVEN FOR ONCE withour feeling the need to post crap that suppose to balance the whole thing?

Unique is another thing and he is not on the antipode of Z-N. This is unfair. Unique makes the mistake and people put Z-N to the same balance.

Unique like Skeptic know how to stir the pot without violating the rules. Of course as I have told him many times in public and in private it was just a matter of time that he would be carried away and he would post something that he would regret afterwards.

That day has come and he has regretted it. I know that he has.

Here, for example, is an example of ZN's work

I suggest you heed Mark Twain's advice Demon and a_u_p; "It is better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."

Hardly a poster who is all factual, polite and indulges in no personal attacks. He is constantly making them.

http://randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=1870781203&highlight=remove#post1870781203

I replied in kind, but not so obtusely.

 

[Mycroft]

Here, for example, is an example of ZN's work

That thread doesn't exactly show you in the best of light. Are you really sure you want to give it as an example of how bad ZN is?

 

[voodoochile]

It must be my catholic upbringing. I have felt racist sentiments in the past, and come to understand them and not nurture them. They go away, an inherent tribalism. Based on these past sentiments, I am not going to now go and claim I am now perfect, and will not do the same again. If you are perfect, good luck to you.

Well thank you and perhaps I misjudged you a bit.

I do want to say that being free of prejudice isn't easy. I wasn't always this way and struggled with it at times in the past myself. I was fortunate to be raised by a man who was a secular humanist and who never judged people on their outward characteristics. It does take time and effort to fight against our inner demons be they racism or otherwise.

So fitting that there is a thread on Thomas Jefferson currently active and it quotes the DOI.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."

The particular argument you raised has always touched a nerve in me. "Everyone does it" or "Two wrongs DO equal a right" is a copout.

I think you goofed when you picked an ethnic group to make your example. I still haven't read the topics that started all of this. I refuse. It's at its best a silly flame war between hard headed people that got out of hand and at its worst something much darker and more sinister. It speaks strictly of the posters in question and not the topics at hand. No matter who started it or fanned the flames people allowed it to grow and this is the result - a massive flame war and trolling. Woo... hoo...?

Argue the point, not the poster. You cannot win with some people they just turn up the volume.

 

[billydkid]

I don't agree...

Do yourself and the JREF website a favore. Kill the forum and ban political talk. It will never be anything but a loser and it will always detract from the rest of the website.

I'm an admin at a large baseball website. We had to do that there last summer. We tried to put all political posts in one forum and hope for the best. It got ugly and then it got worse - and this is a Chicago team so most of the posters understand crooked and humorous politics and politicians. I actually moderated that forum for a while it gave me quite the headache.

With the current state of this forum, given the posts I've seen, dump it all. Close it up, wrap it up and go back to doing what JREF does best - bashing woos and advancing the cause of science in society.

Let the idiots who never listen to the other side and honestly believe they can make their point by shouting the loudest and the longest go do it somewhere else, otherwise be prepared to let the trolls take it over (and there are plenty of them here on both sides of the argument) or start banning members right and left and dealing with them reregistering to scream even louder about the injustice of it all. They can't even shut up and stop yelling at each other in this thread to talk about the problems here. It isn't going to get better.

Obviously I don't have any say on these forums and am not trying to tell you how to run your site. It's just my $0.02. Spend it how you please...

I don't agree. Any forum, any thread, any post, any poster can be be avoided if one chooses to avoid them. It is less than effortless not to participate in the political forum or any thread there and many of us enjoy the give and take. Let's face it, there really is nothing genuine to debate about in terms of the supernatural or religion. I think people are way too PC about having their sensibilities (or something) offended. Just because people can often be childish does not mean we all have to turn into babies.

 

[CapelDodger]

I do want to say that being free of prejudice isn't easy.

It's always been easy for me. I was born into a multi-cultural, working-class environment where all that seemed to matter was whether you liked someone or didn't. I can appreciate now that there were probably adult tensions around, but it had no impact on me. My mother's centrist Labour, my father's centrist Conservative. Not identifying with anybody, I didn't have an "other" concept. I was born in 1954, so I grew up post-imperial and post-Hitler, which (I assumed) was the definitive lesson on racism. Seeing TV footage of the Civil Rights demonstrations was a major shock - such attitudes still existed? In the US? Where Elvis lives? That's what drew my attention to current affairs, which I'd previously regarded as boring compared to history. The Fukiyama got kicked out of me right then. Just think, if it hadn't I might have missed Vietnam, the Six-Day War, Northern Ireland - that was another major shock - and wasted my time chasing girls and becoming a rock-hero. A narrow escape.

In order to empathise with prejudice, I hate Serbs. I checked out a wide field before settling on them, and they're way out-ahead winners.

Apart from that, there are three kinds of people in my world : people I know and care about, people I know and don't care about, and people I don't know and so have nothing against. I use "know" in a fairly wide sense; I'm not personally acquainted with OBL, but I'd like to see him watch his bollocks being buried in a pigskin pouch in the foundations of a girls' school.

 

[voodoochile]

It's always been easy for me. I was born into a multi-cultural, working-class environment where all that seemed to matter was whether you liked someone or didn't. I can appreciate now that there were probably adult tensions around, but it had no impact on me. My mother's centrist Labour, my father's centrist Conservative. Not identifying with anybody, I didn't have an "other" concept. I was born in 1954, so I grew up post-imperial and post-Hitler, which (I assumed) was the definitive lesson on racism. Seeing TV footage of the Civil Rights demonstrations was a major shock - such attitudes still existed? In the US? Where Elvis lives? That's what drew my attention to current affairs, which I'd previously regarded as boring compared to history. The Fukiyama got kicked out of me right then. Just think, if it hadn't I might have missed Vietnam, the Six-Day War, Northern Ireland - that was another major shock - and wasted my time chasing girls and becoming a rock-hero. A narrow escape.

In order to empathise with prejudice, I hate Serbs. I checked out a wide field before settling on them, and they're way out-ahead winners.

Apart from that, there are three kinds of people in my world : people I know and care about, people I know and don't care about, and people I don't know and so have nothing against. I use "know" in a fairly wide sense; I'm not personally acquainted with OBL, but I'd like to see him watch his bollocks being buried in a pigskin pouch in the foundations of a girls' school.

I think that's a very solid outlook all the way around.

I would like to add that the reason I don't think it's easy is because of the world we live in - especially in America where racism still exists on many levels. Growing up in Chicago, it was always there. King Richard I (AKA Hizzoner, Boss) was not the most liberal democrat in the history of the world.

The key for me was to realize I had preconceptions and to work to correct them. I never was a rampant hater. I never joined any groups based on ethnicity, creed etc. but when I am being honest with myself, I can look back and say that my viewpoint was not always the one I strove for and believed I already carried in my heart. Now I know that is a fact. I am not ashamed to admit that I have grown up. I have nothing to hide here or in the "real world".

 

[Skeptic]

That thread doesn't exactly show you in the best of light. Are you really sure you want to give it as an example of how bad ZN is?

In that thread AUP looks like a fool, is called on it by Z-N using the famous Twain analogy, and in response he tells Z-N to "go **** yourself".

Has AUP lost it completely?

 

[TillEulenspiegel]

Point of order . one and one half corrections.

Libel in the US is almost exclusively in writing against an individual.Public corporations and organizations are viable targets.The law is different in the UK . Witness the suit brought by McDonald's UK against 6 individuals. Micky D's just lost BTW

The "Better remain slient..." quote has been attributed to Lincoln,Twain,Engel and unknown. I know They all used it but in regards to authorship, I suspect that the last is the most correct.

OK back to Your blood sport.

 

[Cleopatra]

I think that's a very solid outlook all the way around.

I

Yes and it was posted by someone who when he posts about certain topics ( for example, zionism) you can hear his blood boiling in passion even if you live thousands of miles away.

 

[CapelDodger]

Yes and it was posted by someone who when he posts about certain topics ( for example, zionism) you can hear his blood boiling in passion even if you live thousands of miles away.

I am a creature of passion, slave to my emotions. Zionism, fascism, the Vatican, Wahabbism, and many more arouse my passion - but all of them movements or organisations that I despise having come to know about them. Post-judice, rather than prejudice.