(Ex JREF Admin thread): Comments on recent reports

[Cleon]

I feel the need to clarify my position a final time. People can point fingers, name names, make accusations, Cleon can taunt me like a petulant child in a moderated thread and a_u_p can claim he is actually the one wronged yet when I complained about his openly racist thread my post was the one censored and deleted by the JREF admins.

That is why I have chosen to leave, the playing field is so slanted that I no longer feel comfortable here. The trolls win.

Petulant child? I'm not the one throwing a temper tantrum because a post I made in a moderated thread was censored. Quite whining and grow up.

 

[a_unique_person]

In AUP´s defense (unlikely as it is for me to defend the likes of him), "Skeptic" has a clear history of labelling anybody who diagrees with him about Israel an anti-semite, claiming they wish for the death of all jews, and that they are apologists for terrorism. I´m not the only poster who started out discussing with with him in a civil, factual way, but immediately became the target of his rabid, hate-filled rantings. It´s no wonder that hardly any sensible person who disagree with him is willing to discuss with him anymore.

If the time from September ´03 (when I joined this forum) on is any indication for the time before that since "Skeptic" joined, he has never, ever been interested in honest political debate, he is completely unable to adress anybody who disagress with him about Israel in a civil manner or to consider that someone who disagree with him might not do that because he is completely and utterly evil, and he is unable to ever take into account the possibility that he might be wrong in his opinion - and indeed that his opinion are only opinion, not the complete and irrefutable truth.

I can handle accusations of anti-semitism, or any other racism, if they are pointed out in a reasonable and rational way, as I believe we are all inherently tribal, that is, mildly racist. If I am unwittingly guilty of it, and it is pointed out, fair enough. (This works both ways, mind you).

Skeptic and Co are doing far worse than that.

The "How many jews died ...' thread was one I kept well out of, I am not interested in spreading holocaust denial, and you can count on there being many people here who would attack the OP.

Having stayed out of it, I found I was still being attacked for being an anti-semite, but, not just that, one of the calibre of David Irving.

From Rikzilla

Gee,

AUP is just soooo much better at this KOA. You should get together with him sometime and take a lesson or two in hard-hitting yet subtle anti-semitism 101. I believe the first chapter is on the importance of hiding one's motives in a plausable way.

-z

My response

**** you too. Another liar. I had kept out of this thread, for obvious reasons, only to find this sort of **** being spouted behind my back.

And I don't retract one word of that. It is an obscene lie.

Mycroft then confirms the worst.

O c'mon! All he said is you were more subtle in your anti-Semitism. It's a compliment, really.

This is untenable.

Jocko, who has labelled me less than human, tells me

"behind your back"? Catty much? Sheesh.

I am being catty. You can accuse anyone you want of being the worst kind of anti semite, and any protest is just catty?

As Chaos has pointed out, most people just give up on Skeptic and the 'gang of four'. My crime is that I didn't. This meant I was not just an anti-semite, I was an anti-semite like David Irving.

 

[Mycroft]

As Chaos has pointed out, most people just give up on Skeptic and the 'gang of four'. My crime is that I didn't. This meant I was not just an anti-semite, I was an anti-semite like David Irving.

If I'm reading this right, you're trying to claim that smearing Jews was a good way to prove you're not an anti-Semite?

 

[a_unique_person]

If I'm reading this right, you're trying to claim that smearing Jews was a good way to prove you're not an anti-Semite?

Refer to Chaos post.

 

[voodoochile]

(snip)...as I believe we are all inherently tribal, that is, mildly racist. If I am unwittingly guilty of it, and it is pointed out, fair enough. (This works both ways, mind you).

I really wanted to stay out of this crap. I didn't read the posts that started the huge fight. I didn't read the "parody" you posted. I don't agree with either side, but bluntly speaking this is a copout.

No, WE are not.

This is the exact kind of crap bigots all through history have used to justify their stupidity

I don't have a racist bone or thought in my body. You admit you do. I think that says a lot.

I resent the implication. I resent the "libel".

Other than that, this catfights sucks.

 

[Mycroft]

Refer to Chaos post.

I did.

You "didn't give up" meaning that you wrote your "parody" of Skeptics post.

So, because Skeptic called you an anti-Semite, you started a thread that smeard Jews.

You thought that by doing this, by using the same lanugage Skeptic used, you could get Skeptic to "see the light" about the language he used...smearing the UN...and somehow conclude that he was wrong in calling you an anti-Semite. Even though the language you copied wasn't written by Skeptic but was from an article he quoted, and his topic wasn't smearing a people but criticizing an organization...

I'll grant the logic is confusing and twisted, so if I'm not following it correctly feel free to help me out. No matter how I look at it, it still reads that because your feelings were hurt over being called an anti-Semite, you thought it would be a good idea to start a thread smearing Jews.

 

[Cleopatra]

Let's get some things staright here.

Although I am not a great admirer of Zenith-Nadir and I am the one who suspected him as a sock when he appeared in the forum I find TERRIBLY INJUST to accuse him of anything just because he posts facts that some people don't like.

Zenith-Nadir rarely gets involved in flame wars although he has been called names repeatedly and he has never responded to this name calling. All his posts, whether we like it or not are well documented and well writen.

If some people find the facts that Z-N posts annoying then he/ she should put him on ignore but accusing him just out of principle and just because some people feel the need to be balanced is ridiculous and cowardice.

It reminds me of the hypocrites that feel the need to start accusing Israel about everything in order to admit the misfortunes that Jews have suffered.

Is it THAT HARD to admit that a jewish person is right EVEN FOR ONCE withour feeling the need to post crap that suppose to balance the whole thing?

Unique is another thing and he is not on the antipode of Z-N. This is unfair. Unique makes the mistake and people put Z-N to the same balance.

Unique like Skeptic know how to stir the pot without violating the rules. Of course as I have told him many times in public and in private it was just a matter of time that he would be carried away and he would post something that he would regret afterwards.

That day has come and he has regretted it. I know that he has.

 

[Cleopatra]

In AUP´s defense (unlikely as it is for me to defend the likes of him), "Skeptic" has a clear history of labelling anybody who diagrees with him about Israel an anti-semite, claiming they wish for the death of all jews, and that they are apologists for terrorism. I´m not the only poster who started out discussing with with him in a civil, factual way, but immediately became the target of his rabid, hate-filled rantings. It´s no wonder that hardly any sensible person who disagree with him is willing to discuss with him anymore.

If the time from September ´03 (when I joined this forum) on is any indication for the time before that since "Skeptic" joined, he has never, ever been interested in honest political debate, he is completely unable to adress anybody who disagress with him about Israel in a civil manner or to consider that someone who disagree with him might not do that because he is completely and utterly evil, and he is unable to ever take into account the possibility that he might be wrong in his opinion - and indeed that his opinion are only opinion, not the complete and irrefutable truth.

Ok I choose to address Chaos' post for obvious reasons. The whole thing has started getting on my nerves seriously.

Let me ask you something Chaos, do you seriously believe that some of us here are not in the position to tell the difference between " criticizing Israel" and " spewing hatred against Israelis" with the help of tiny snide remarks and pretentious balanced and serious posts?
Do you seriously believe that comments like this:

Was this right? Was the founding of the state of Israel such a priority that indivdual compensation had to be sacrificed for this greater goal?

can persuade anybody rational in this forum that constitute "criticism to Israel" and not blunt demonstration of contempt towards the Israelis?

Do you seriously believe that in order for a comment to be considered as antisemitic must contain a declaration of hatred towards the jews?

No it's not only the choice of words that makes a statement antisemitic but the most important is the point that tries to make and the conclusions that asks the reader to drag from it.

Read the brilliant snide remark I quoted. I wanted to throw up when I read it.

From that point of view in this forum I have read some of the most antisemitic crap I have read in my whole life and those who compose them systematically should be ashamed for themselves.

 

[DanishDynamite]

Cleo:

Let me ask you something Chaos, do you seriously believe that some of us here are not in the position to tell the difference between " criticizing Israel" and " spewing hatred against Israelis" with the help of tiny snide remarks and pretentious balanced and serious posts?

Obviously the answer is Yes.

Do you seriously believe that comments like this:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by davefoc

Was this right? Was the founding of the state of Israel such a priority that indivdual compensation had to be sacrificed for this greater goal?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

can persuade anybody rational in this forum that constitute "criticism to Israel" and not blunt demonstration of contempt towards the Israelis?

I don't see how that quote shows contempt of Israelies. I also don't see why showing contempt for Israelis should not be allowed. Showing contempt for all sorts of groups is prevalent in this forum.

Read the brilliant snide remark I quoted. I wanted to throw up when I read it.

Could you explain why? I'm seriously mystified.

 

[demon]

voodoochile:
"I don't have a racist bone or thought in my body."

Don`t tell me...some of your best friends are black?

 

[demon]

Cleo, I,d appreciate it too if you could explain exactly just what is so bad about davefocs comment.
I`m mystified too.

 

[voodoochile]

voodoochile:
"I don't have a racist bone or thought in my body."

Don`t tell me...some of your best friends are black?

I get it... Sarcasm...

you're a funny guy...

 

[kimiko]

...do you seriously believe that some of us here are not in the position to tell the difference between " criticizing Israel" and " spewing hatred against Israelis" with the help of tiny snide remarks and pretentious balanced and serious posts?
Do you seriously believe that comments like this:
can persuade anybody rational in this forum that constitute "criticism to Israel" and not blunt demonstration of contempt towards the Israelis?

No it's not only the choice of words that makes a statement antisemitic but the most important is the point that tries to make and the conclusions that asks the reader to drag from it.

Read the brilliant snide remark I quoted. I wanted to throw up when I read it.

I think it may be too close for some people to judge objectively. Take what you quoted as an example. It isn't anti-semitic, but it is illogical. I think people took him to task for his false premises in the thread. The only way to glean anti-semitism from that statement is to take it in with a great number of other posts to form a pattern; in isolation it isn't sufficient. Other statements could be straightforwardly biased, like calling Hamas 'righteous'. But Z-N isn't a perfect poster either, and has had posts with strained logic placing an inordinate amount of blame at the feet of arabs, and that could be construed as racist as well. But then Z-N didn't start a thread like that one, which made me cringe that anyone wouldn't see the difference between an organization and a race/ethnicity.

I've considered asking if people could take a weeklong holiday from discussing anything Israel/Palestinian related, but wasn't sure how to go about doing that (without seeming racist).

 

[Elind]

I've considered asking if people could take a weeklong holiday from discussing anything Israel/Palestinian related, but wasn't sure how to go about doing that (without seeming racist).

Why not just move it all over to the Religion section, and get down to the nitti gritti of what drives this? Sure there are good people and bad people and greedy people on all sides, but without the fundies pulling strings they would end up making economic bottom line decisions in the end. It's all god's fault.

 

[voodoochile]

Why not just move it all over to the Religion section, and get down to the nitti gritti of what drives this? Sure there are good people and bad people and greedy people on all sides, but without the fundies pulling strings they would end up making economic bottom line decisions in the end. It's all god's fault.

Are you sure that's what drives it?

Might there be a secular explanation for the on going war in the Middle East?

Europeans have benn invading that part of the world for what seems like forever. Now along comes a world war and after it is over, a bunch of western governments come along, carve out a chunk of land and settle a bunch of Europeans there.

The religious aspect of it is merely the beginning of the situation. What has happened since then is all about control.

 

[Elind]

Are you sure that's what drives it?

Many things drive what people do, but the one that makes no concessions and takes no prisoners, is god.

 

[a_unique_person]

Let's get some things staright here.

Although I am not a great admirer of Zenith-Nadir and I am the one who suspected him as a sock when he appeared in the forum I find TERRIBLY INJUST to accuse him of anything just because he posts facts that some people don't like.

Zenith-Nadir rarely gets involved in flame wars although he has been called names repeatedly and he has never responded to this name calling. All his posts, whether we like it or not are well documented and well writen.

If some people find the facts that Z-N posts annoying then he/ she should put him on ignore but accusing him just out of principle and just because some people feel the need to be balanced is ridiculous and cowardice.

It reminds me of the hypocrites that feel the need to start accusing Israel about everything in order to admit the misfortunes that Jews have suffered.

Is it THAT HARD to admit that a jewish person is right EVEN FOR ONCE withour feeling the need to post crap that suppose to balance the whole thing?

Unique is another thing and he is not on the antipode of Z-N. This is unfair. Unique makes the mistake and people put Z-N to the same balance.

Unique like Skeptic know how to stir the pot without violating the rules. Of course as I have told him many times in public and in private it was just a matter of time that he would be carried away and he would post something that he would regret afterwards.

That day has come and he has regretted it. I know that he has.

ZN is a liar, as is Skeptic, as is Mycroft, and RIkzilla.

Did you read what SKeptic et all have said about me?

 

[a_unique_person]

I really wanted to stay out of this crap. I didn't read the posts that started the huge fight. I didn't read the "parody" you posted. I don't agree with either side, but bluntly speaking this is a copout.

No, WE are not.

This is the exact kind of crap bigots all through history have used to justify their stupidity

I don't have a racist bone or thought in my body. You admit you do. I think that says a lot.

I resent the implication. I resent the "libel".

Other than that, this catfights sucks.

It must be my catholic upbringing. I have felt racist sentiments in the past, and come to understand them and not nurture them. They go away, an inherent tribalism. Based on these past sentiments, I am not going to now go and claim I am now perfect, and will not do the same again. If you are perfect, good luck to you.

 

[a_unique_person]

I think it may be too close for some people to judge objectively. Take what you quoted as an example. It isn't anti-semitic, but it is illogical. I think people took him to task for his false premises in the thread. The only way to glean anti-semitism from that statement is to take it in with a great number of other posts to form a pattern; in isolation it isn't sufficient. Other statements could be straightforwardly biased, like calling Hamas 'righteous'. But Z-N isn't a perfect poster either, and has had posts with strained logic placing an inordinate amount of blame at the feet of arabs, and that could be construed as racist as well. But then Z-N didn't start a thread like that one, which made me cringe that anyone wouldn't see the difference between an organization and a race/ethnicity.

I've considered asking if people could take a weeklong holiday from discussing anything Israel/Palestinian related, but wasn't sure how to go about doing that (without seeming racist).

The difference is I don't believe a word of the post .

 

[kimiko]

The difference is I don't believe a word of the post .

I understand, but it was a false analogy (organization to ethnicity) so it wasn't going to be seen as a joke by everyone. It doesn't help that the other thread had fallen down on the page.