(Ex JREF Admin thread): Comments on recent reports

[CBL4]

Darat,

This thread is not about censorship or about moderated threads or any particular post or thread.

It can be used to discuss points directly related to my OP all other content will be removed. So as a for instance the advice about racism from Ed was appropriate, ZN's analogy wasn't.

I am not sure I understand what you are saying. First of all what do you mean "related to my OP?" If it means "opening paragraph", the first paragraph in your first post says:

There have been several reports of posts in this section of the forum over the last few days; these reports have contained serious accusations and allegations ranging from racism to libel.

How can we discuss what is racist, libelous or offensive and what to do about it without examples? We could all agree to be polite and civil as you suggest but without examples and definitions of what is uncivil or impolite, it is meanless.

I understand your desire to keep names out of it but that is not a possibility. If this thread is to be meaningful, then examples and discussion about censorship are a necessity.

My two cents worth is that I have seen a lot of idiotic and offensive posts on this forum but I not seen one yet that I would even considered deleting.

CBL

 

[kalen]

Yeah, guys. Let's just stick to derailing threads by off-topic posts.

 

[a_unique_person]

Skeptic has accused me of being an anti-semite like David Irving. Despite my repeated requests that this libel is not made of me, because there is no basis for it whatsoever, you call up some strange psychic powers that allow you to discern what I am really thinking. This 'mask fell' is a libel, and I have raised merry hell every time you have made it, and you just keep making it. And every time you make it, it damn well hurts. So when are you going to stop. I am not like David Irving, I do not wear accusations of anti-semitism like a badge of pride, I feel them and they hurt deeply.

When I was writing the op for the thread in question, i was thinking to myself, 'you can't say that', but I wasn't saying it, all I was doing was copying a post of Skeptics, and hoping he would see how absurd his post was.

BTW, I still find his thread extremely offensive. I am a supporter of the UN, I have a great deal of respect for the UN, and know that there are many hangers on, time wasters and charlatans in it, not to mention rapists. His attack on it was cheap, was all his own work, and offensive.

I don't believe a word of the parody, despite Skeptics accusation, once again, that I have 'let the mask slip'. He, however, still believes his post. Now, figure that out.

 

[zenith-nadir]

This will be my last post at JREF. Why? Notice how the only one who's posts are censored out is me....

 

[crimresearch]

ZN, you should know the rules about moderated threads as well as anyone else here.

Why did you choose to get your posts censored when that was so eminently forseeable?

 

[a_unique_person]

My question to Skeptic

And, once again, you accuse me of being an anti-semite like David Irving.

His response.

Yup. You are.

This is not the first time he has made this claim. This has been going on for well over a year. And I am sick of it.

I find these attacks extremely offensive, and libellous. I want Skeptic to put up real evidence, or stop these accusations once and for all. 'Mask slip' claims are not evidence.

 

[Mycroft]

This is not the first time he has made this claim. This has been going on for well over a year. And I am sick of it.

I find these attacks extremely offensive, and libellous. I want Skeptic to put up real evidence, or stop these accusations once and for all. 'Mask slip' claims are not evidence.

The truth is he's given you ample reason for his opinions just like you and the Fool have given your reasons for calling him a racist.

The Fool has also told me why he doesn't like me, and even though I don't agree with his reasons, I've never asked him to retract what is, after everything is said and done, his opinion. That wouldn't make sense.

What does make sense is if you don't like the way people think about you, what you can do about it is either change yourself or just live with it.

 

[The Fool]

The truth is he's given you ample reason for his opinions just like you and the Fool have given your reasons for calling him a racist.

The Fool has also told me why he doesn't like me, and even though I don't agree with his reasons, I've never asked him to retract what is, after everything is said and done, his opinion. That wouldn't make sense.

I have never called anyone a racist without doing them the justice of quoting the words they publish that I claim are racist.

And don't talk to me about retractions until you consider retracting your lowlife post claiming I have an unusual interest in childrens genitals....sheesh, the clowns that skeptic can summon to his defence is amazing. I don't see you as being in any position to add anything of value to this discussion.


You, Skeptic, ZN, cleopatra, rikzilla and probably a few others that don't readily come to mind feel that you can call A_U_P an others a racist because it is thier "opinion" that he is.....Constant calls to backup the claims are ignored or stupid claims are made that critisizing Israel is racism.... I am not saying it is not your right to level accusations but lets see what you've got to back it up so we can judge your credibility At the moment this "mask slipped" stuff is just garbage that will always get challenged on a skeptics board. I don't care how frequent or vocal someone is in critisism of Israeli actions and the Zionist political movement....it is not anti-semitism any more than critisizm of actions of the United kingdom is anti-protestantism.

On one hand you have Skeptic et al making ourageous general slurs against arabs and muslims or anyone else they think is not supporting israel.... yet claiming, if challenged, that they are only talking about the minority criminal elements.....yet if they see critisizm of Israel they have no trouble in shifting this critisizm to all jews....talk about a persecution complex.

What A_U_P has done here is simply transpose the words of one of skeptics typical hate rants so that the hypocrisy of those that preach hatred while throwing about accusations of the same thing is obvious even to the apologists, the blinkered and the ignorant.

 

[Elind]

Re: Re: JREF Admin: Comments on recent reports

Darat, I know that you are not a US person so you should know that here a charge of "racism" holds no meaning. This epithet has been so misused that it can apply to the mayor of NY regulating street vendors (I am making this up).

As far a libel goes, I suggest that as part of the terms and conditions people agree to take abuse like a man (or chick, as the case may be). Lordy, lordy, lordy, this is the Internet, after all.

Having been called a "racist" myself, on more than one occassion I have to concur with this. The first couple of times I was both puzzled and angered that I could have been so misunderstood, and insulted (I would hesitate to say libeled however). This was until it became clear that some people use words very loosely, to suite their needs, vocabulary or lack of vocabulary.

An analogy would be how creationists use the word Theory.

Another that comes to mind was a discussion concerning the word Pacifist. Apparently some believe that there is no longer a word for the original meaning of Pacifist, instead it now means something akin to "Hippy" and only old farts are still privy to the old language of past ages.

Anyway, I've got to see some pretty direct stuff, like threats of violence, before I will now take these kind of insults as more than bad manners or poor upbringing.

Come to think of it, however 1inC does tend to threaten pretty bad stuff, but I suppose since it's by proxy of an imaginary friend that doesn't count?

Anyway, lighten up kids. Maybe we should have a vote section of the forum where anyone can nominate someone else for an Oscar or an Enema (1 vote per month only) and at the end of the year the Oscar winner (most votes) gets a Jref coffee cup and the Enema (most votes) gets a booby prize, which is dinner with the runner up Enema winners, and guess what, they get to argue over who pays!

 

[Cleon]

This will be my last post at JREF. Why? Notice how the only one who's posts are censored out is me....

Yes, obviously it's a conspiracy against you.

I would actually have shared your outrage....if Darat hadn't made it clear from the outset, using nice clear highlighted language, that this is a moderated forum and any posts may be edited, deleted, or moved at his discretion. In other words, you have no excuse for not knowing the rules when you posted, and it was very clear Darat reserved the right to censor any posts made here.

Now you're throwing a temper tantrum because your post was edited. Well, how mature. I can only mourn what a loss you'll be to the forum as a whole.

I figure this will last about a week, tops, before you come back. Consider that a challenge if you like; I would love to be proven wrong.

(Darat, if you decide to delete, edit, or move this post, I actually took the time and energy to read the original post and I promise not to whine, sniffle, cry, or b---- about "censorship" if you do so.)

 

[a_unique_person]

Re: Re: Re: JREF Admin: Comments on recent reports

Having been called a "racist" myself, on more than one occassion I have to concur with this. The first couple of times I was both puzzled and angered that I could have been so misunderstood, and insulted (I would hesitate to say libeled however). This was until it became clear that some people use words very loosely, to suite their needs, vocabulary or lack of vocabulary.

An analogy would be how creationists use the word Theory.

Another that comes to mind was a discussion concerning the word Pacifist. Apparently some believe that there is no longer a word for the original meaning of Pacifist, instead it now means something akin to "Hippy" and only old farts are still privy to the old language of past ages.

Anyway, I've got to see some pretty direct stuff, like threats of violence, before I will now take these kind of insults as more than bad manners or poor upbringing.

Come to think of it, however 1inC does tend to threaten pretty bad stuff, but I suppose since it's by proxy of an imaginary friend that doesn't count?

Anyway, lighten up kids. Maybe we should have a vote section of the forum where anyone can nominate someone else for an Oscar or an Enema (1 vote per month only) and at the end of the year the Oscar winner (most votes) gets a Jref coffee cup and the Enema (most votes) gets a booby prize, which is dinner with the runner up Enema winners, and guess what, they get to argue over who pays!

No, he is quite specific, I am anti-semite in the David Irving league. I use subterfuge and deception to spread hate and lies, while pretending to be innocent. He detects my 'mask slip' with some psychic powers, and accuses me of not just being a racist, but a racist of the worst kind. This I find personally deeply painful. He does not do it just once, but nultiple times. Then Mycroft and ZN and Rikzilla chime in. A thread questioning if 'only' 2,000,000 Jews were killed on the holocaust, which I avoided because I am not interested in perpetuating holocaust denial, contains posts claiming that I am a master of the art of deception and anti-semitism, and the person who started the thread should learn some tricks from me.

I can't win. If I avoid such threads, I am still damned because I am so good at deception. If I protest, I am being even more devious. Then I have to put up with continual snide references to my 'real' motives.

 

[voodoochile]

Do yourself and the JREF website a favore. Kill the forum and ban political talk. It will never be anything but a loser and it will always detract from the rest of the website.

I'm an admin at a large baseball website. We had to do that there last summer. We tried to put all political posts in one forum and hope for the best. It got ugly and then it got worse - and this is a Chicago team so most of the posters understand crooked and humorous politics and politicians. I actually moderated that forum for a while it gave me quite the headache.

With the current state of this forum, given the posts I've seen, dump it all. Close it up, wrap it up and go back to doing what JREF does best - bashing woos and advancing the cause of science in society.

Let the idiots who never listen to the other side and honestly believe they can make their point by shouting the loudest and the longest go do it somewhere else, otherwise be prepared to let the trolls take it over (and there are plenty of them here on both sides of the argument) or start banning members right and left and dealing with them reregistering to scream even louder about the injustice of it all. They can't even shut up and stop yelling at each other in this thread to talk about the problems here. It isn't going to get better.

Obviously I don't have any say on these forums and am not trying to tell you how to run your site. It's just my $0.02. Spend it how you please...

 

[charley_bigtime]

Somebody's drowning.

 

[zenith-nadir]

I feel the need to clarify my position a final time. People can point fingers, name names, make accusations, Cleon can taunt me like a petulant child in a moderated thread and a_u_p can claim he is actually the one wronged yet when I complained about his openly racist thread my post was the one censored and deleted by the JREF admins.

That is why I have chosen to leave, the playing field is so slanted that I no longer feel comfortable here. The trolls win.

 

[The Fool]

I feel the need to clarify my position a final time. People can point fingers, name names, make accusations, Cleon can taunt me like a petulant child in a moderated thread and a_u_p can claim he is actually the one wronged yet when I complained about his openly racist thread my post was the one censored and deleted by the JREF admins.

That is why I have chosen to leave, the playing field is so slanted that I no longer feel comfortable here. The trolls win.

You still here?
sigh, more farewell performances than cher...
Can I have your car spot?

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by The Fool
I have never called anyone a racist without doing them the justice of quoting the words they publish that I claim are racist.

Right. Just as Skeptic and I have told AUP why we think he’s a bigot.

Originally posted by The Fool
And don't talk to me about retractions...

I didn’t. What I said was, "I've never asked him to retract what is, after everything is said and done, his opinion. That wouldn't make sense." The only way you get from there to a desire to talk about retractions is through poor reading skills, I don’t want your retraction and am not offering one myself.

Originally posted by The Fool
...until you consider retracting your lowlife post claiming I have an unusual interest in childrens genitals....

If you review that thread you will discover I did not say that.

Originally posted by The Fool
You, Skeptic, ZN, cleopatra, rikzilla and probably a few others that don't readily come to mind feel that you can call A_U_P an others a racist because it is thier "opinion" that he is.....Constant calls to backup the claims are ignored or stupid claims are made that critisizing Israel is racism.... I am not saying it is not your right to level accusations but lets see what you've got to back it up so we can judge your credibility At the moment this "mask slipped" stuff is just garbage that will always get challenged on a skeptics board. I don't care how frequent or vocal someone is in critisism of Israeli actions and the Zionist political movement....it is not anti-semitism any more than critisizm of actions of the United kingdom is anti-protestantism.

Of course you will be able to provide evidence where I, Skeptic, Cleopatra, ZN or Rikzilla ever claimed that criticizing Israel in itself was racism?

Originally posted by The Fool What A_U_P has done here is simply transpose the words of one of skeptics typical hate rants so that the hypocrisy of those that preach hatred while throwing about accusations of the same thing is obvious even to the apologists, the blinkered and the ignorant.

Is it really your opinion that taking the UN to task for exploiting children for sex is preaching hatred?

 

[a_unique_person]

Right. Just as Skeptic and I have told AUP why we think he’s a bigot.

No not a bigot. Someone in the category of David Irving. Now you are lying again. Skeptic has confirmed that is exactly what he has always intended his 'mask fall' accusations to mean, and that is what you have always appeared to make them mean.

If you think I am racist, a bigot, show me evidence, and I will wear it. But if you are going to go around accusing me of being the lowest of the low, a David Irving type creature, which is what is being done here, then be prepared for some response, because I don't have to accept it, in any shape or form. I know it is a blatant lie, and I am happy to show the moderators any evidence they require to prove I am not.

 

[a_unique_person]

Skeptics post 1870787498.

This 'mask fell' is a libel, and I have raised merry hell every time you have made it,

Of course you did. And captain whatshisname was shocked--SHOCKED!--to find out there was gambling going on at Rick's, too. But that's hardly a reason to accept either your or his claims at face value, now is it?

and you just keep making it.

Yup. Because it's true. Your "raising merry hell" in denial is, simply put, no concern of mine whatever.

And every time you make it, it damn well hurts.

Awwwwwww.

So when are you going to stop.

I don't think I shall, actually. And, if it hurts so much, perhaps altering your behavior--apologizing for saying that the Arabs were "justified"in in trying to kill my family in 1948, for instance--might be in order.

I am not like David Irving,

Yes, you are. In particular, like David Irving, you are the master of insinuation. Only rarely does Irving openly say "the holocaust never happened", or openly identify the "traditional enemies of truth" as "the jews", what he obviously means. It is just sheer "objectivity" and "moral indignation" that leads him to emphasize and overblow every Allied blunder or every jewish saying against Germany and minimize or excuse every German crime.

You do the same. Only rarely--when you slip--do you openly come out and say the Arabs should have butchered the jews, or that the "zionists" control the media, or that suicide bombers' victims had it coming. You usually work by insinuation: it's just by sheer chance that every israeli action is pointed out in the worst possible light, while all Arab crimes and intentions go unnoticed or are excused.

But, as a reporter in Irving's trial said about it, the biggest disappointment of the David Irving trial was "his intelligence, which supposedly made him so dangerous. He is not convincing, not for a second." Same with you. Of course, it is an exagerration to say anybody is "disappointed" by your intelligence--that would require somebody having a high regard for it in the first place--but in both cases, your identical, obvious, and none-too-smart methods are rather obvious, and are not fooling anybody.

I did not want a war. I was not even born when the fighting started. I said war was inevitable, something many Jews believe, certainly the Zionists did. I have described the creation of Israel as something like a Greek Tragedy. After the holocaust, it was inevitable, and so was the suffering and war that followed.

And I have had enough of these accusations, which, once again, are up to you to discern with some mystical powers. If you accuse me of being like David Irving, expect a forceful response. If you do so and are abusive, you get it back in spades.

 

[Chaos]

In AUP´s defense (unlikely as it is for me to defend the likes of him), "Skeptic" has a clear history of labelling anybody who diagrees with him about Israel an anti-semite, claiming they wish for the death of all jews, and that they are apologists for terrorism. I´m not the only poster who started out discussing with with him in a civil, factual way, but immediately became the target of his rabid, hate-filled rantings. It´s no wonder that hardly any sensible person who disagree with him is willing to discuss with him anymore.

If the time from September ´03 (when I joined this forum) on is any indication for the time before that since "Skeptic" joined, he has never, ever been interested in honest political debate, he is completely unable to adress anybody who disagress with him about Israel in a civil manner or to consider that someone who disagree with him might not do that because he is completely and utterly evil, and he is unable to ever take into account the possibility that he might be wrong in his opinion - and indeed that his opinion are only opinion, not the complete and irrefutable truth.

 

[crimresearch]

And somtimes there are those who vehemently deny being racist, or anti-semitic, but don't mind one bit promoting positions that are associated with those viewpoints.

So if someone says that every amendment after the 10th is illegal and invalid, they are including in their message the logical conclusion that they mean the 13th amendment is illegal, and that they are promoting a return to slavery.

And if someone says that Hamas is just a righteous self defense force, they are embracing the whole 'Kill every Jew' package, not just the warm cuddly bits.

It is easier to pick out the racists on someplace like Stormfront.

It is harder here, where they deny and dissemble, and play semantic games.

Doesn't mean there aren't any though.