Erdogan's purge in Turkey

quadraginta said:
Who are "you guys"? Is there a Vatican of Islam? A Pope?

Who are you expecting to speak as a unified voice of all of Islam.

Even the Catholics can't pull that off. Their various branches can't even agree on a common calendar, or even who to honor on which days.

Ask this question of the Protestant "you guys". Who do you will expect to answer?

What do you think the answer from inerrant Fundamentalist Christians would be?
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Christianity has settled the question 300 years before Islam was founded, by agreeing on a common Bible, that didn't have anywhere near as many glaring contradictions as Islamic texts do.

In other words, all denominations of Christianity of any size throughout history generally agreed what the message of Christ was. There was always debate about theological details (was Christ a son of God, a man, an incarnation of God, ...) the importance of Mary and so on, but not about whether Christ believed a woman badmouthing him should be killed in front of her children or is attempting to poison him a forgivable offense.

The debate in Islam is about much more important things that never were an issue in Christianity. Questions that rise heated debate in and about Islam are outright trivial in Christianity.

What do you suppose their answer to your question would be? Which of them would you ask?
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A comparable question would be: "What did Christ say we should do to our enemies?".

I'm certain the answers wouldn't range all the way from "Cut off their hands and feet and crucify them" to "Pray for their well-being", as they do in Islam. That's the scale of uncertainty Islam must settle if it's to become compatible with modern human civilization.

McHrozni
 
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A'isha said:
The accounts of the Crusaders and especially the accounts of priests who accompanied the soldiers are filled with paens to martyrdom in battle with the "Turks", such as Peter Tudebode who wrote of one battle during the First Crusade, "More than one thousand knights or footmen martyred on that day rose joyfully to heaven and, bearing the stole of customary white-robed martyrdom, glorified and praised our triune God in whom they happily triumphed."
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The purpose of the First Crusade was to reopen Jerusalem to Christian pilgrims that the 'tolerant' Muslim rulers prevented. The purpose of modern Islamic Jihad is to kill non-Muslims and (most commonly) Muslims who slightly disagree with their version of Islam.

If you insist on comparing those two I won't stop you. I will laugh at you though.

Narrow than yours, which extended all the way up to 1453.
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I brought up the fall of Constantinople, because someone other than you mentioned the Ottoman empire. So please, which time period do you want me to include anyway?

Your little "theory" has a couple of fatal flaws.

First of all, the Reconquista (and the expulsion edicts that resulted) came not from Christians inside al-Andalus, but Christian states outside it that had never been ruled by Muslims.
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But they have seen the effects of Muslim rule, suffered badly from their presence and strength, and wanted it to end once and for all.

Considering Muslim invaders took out the oldest and by far most prestigious Christian state of the time a few decades prior to the edict and were making inroads to invade Christian lands in the Balkans, the Spanish understandably felt threatened by a potential resurgent Muslim invasion of their lands, and decided to resolve it before it became an issue. I don't think it was the right thing to do, if it makes you feel better.

Second of all, your idea that the Spanish Christians killed and expelled the Muslims in the territories they conquered because the Muslim rulers treated them poorly doesn't explain why the Spanish Christians expelled and killed the Jews in those territories as well.
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The intolerance brought about by living under the constant threat of Islam extended to other religious groups as well. This is a very common phenomena that continues to this day. In the US Sikhs died in hate crimes in the aftermath of 9/11, because of 9/11. It's unfortunate, illogical and unjust, but also very common.

McHrozni
 
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CapelDodger said:
There were two general answers given to the question of Muslim backwardnes : one blamed it on not enough religion, the other on too much. Until very recently it was the latter opinion that was on top, and there's no reason to think it won't get back there.
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The former opinion got on top several times, but was always suppressed by either military pressure, or an outright coup. This time the coup (if it really was a coup, things are Weird) failed, and the military is getting purged, as are the education system and courts - thus paving the way for both keeping the new system in place and reeducating the youth in Islamism. Islamist parties have over 60% popular support, secular parties less than 30%.

Do you think those are reason to think it might not get up there? There is no certainty it won't, granted, but there is ample room for doubt it will.

McHrozni
 
Darth Rotor said:
Islamic Enlightenment is a non sequitur, or an oxymoron, for a very good reason: it hasn't happened.
And it ain't gonna happen.
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I think that the issue is more semantic than anything. A solid portion Islam is going through the exact same process Christianity went through in early 16th century, with increased importance of scripture over tradition. The proper name would be Evangelicalism, and it was precisely that: let's see what our holy texts say, and do as they say we should do.

With Christianity it eventually led to Enlightenment, abolition of slavery and so on, with Islam it got us ISIS.

But I'm sure that Spanish inquisition proves both religions are of equal merit of course.

McHrozni
 
McHrozni said:
I think that the issue is more semantic than anything. A solid portion Islam is going through the exact same process Christianity went through in early 16th century, with increased importance of scripture over tradition. The proper name would be Evangelicalism, and it was precisely that: let's see what our holy texts say, and do as they say we should do.

With Christianity it eventually led to Enlightenment, abolition of slavery and so on, with Islam it got us ISIS.

But I'm sure that Spanish inquisition proves both religions are of equal merit of course.

McHrozni
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Well, that's just like your opinion man.

Seriously, it's just you waffling on with nothing more to support it than airs of authority.
 
McHrozni said:
My point is that the fact groups of Muslims disagree with which interpretation of Islamic scripture is the most straightforward one does not, in fact, mean they're right.

McHrozni
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These disagreements reflect the character of the religious ideologies which participate in them. But your shape of the earth analogy was not appropriate.
 
Craig B said:
These disagreements reflect the character of the religious ideologies which participate in them.
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If the question is "more correct", then maybe. More straightforward, not so much.

Alas, do you have to comment on any substantial claims, or is your only response a rather weak and irrelevant "this analogy wasn't the most appropriate"?

McHrozni
 
News a close family member has been sacked as part of the purge. Many very ordinary and good people who were not involved with the coup will be affected.
 
McHrozni said:
If the question is "more correct", then maybe. More straightforward, not so much.

Alas, do you have to comment on any substantial claims, or is your only response a rather weak and irrelevant "this analogy wasn't the most appropriate"?

McHrozni
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If you wish, you may re-read my comment as "this analogy was ******* nonsense and total ****, which indicates that your thinking in this issue is worthless tosh."
 
Darth Rotor said:
tinribmancer said:
Here is my favorite part of this thread: crescent's post. Go back and read the quotes about Erdogan's new popularity on the Arab Street.

If a Turkish despot-in-making can arrest 2,700 judges on his "enemies list" and about 20,000 educators, and the "Arab street" cheers him as a champion of democracy, then the Arab world and the Arab Street not only doesn't understand democracy, they richly do not deserve it.
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The man on the street is a problem, and not just Arab Street. Consider Trump and the British referendum vote. What did we do to deserve those?

I rather doubt Erdogan is being cheered as a champion of democracy"; he's blaming the West via Gulen and that's good enough for the mob.

He's a Turk -- he is the Alpha male of a group who had Arabs under their thumbs for four to five centuries. This is, culturally, hilarious.
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Presented in a different way, a Golden Age before the coming of the West. The Ottomans didn't conquer the Arabs, remember; they were their Sunni liberators from the Shia Safavid yoke. Arguably. :cool:
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McHrozni said:
The former opinion got on top several times, but was always suppressed by either military pressure, or an outright coup. This time the coup (if it really was a coup, things are Weird) failed, and the military is getting purged, as are the education system and courts - thus paving the way for both keeping the new system in place and reeducating the youth in Islamism. Islamist parties have over 60% popular support, secular parties less than 30%.

Do you think those are reason to think it might not get up there? There is no certainty it won't, granted, but there is ample room for doubt it will.
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Nothing is certain but it's way beyond likely that Erogan's allegedly religious despotism will fail in pretty short order and that man in the street will find new cheerleaders.

The worst enemy of religious rule is the experience of it.
 
McHrozni said:
I didn't say that, but it's clear the growth of Islamic extremism has little to do with their actions (or lack thereof).
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ISIS originated in the Iraqi section of NATO's network of torture detention facilities.

article said:
One of the Islamic State’s senior commanders reveals exclusive details of the terror group’s origins inside an Iraqi prison – right under the noses of their American jailers.
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Yes, nothing to do with it at all.

Also, IIRC, in the earliest stage of ISIS there was some interesting cultural exchange between it and the US. In its treatment of prisoners it adopted American methods and symbols, such as breaking bones, as well as using that orange overall - as you can see in for instance the earliest beheading videos.
 
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Sideroxylon said:
News a close family member has been sacked as part of the purge. Many very ordinary and good people who were not involved with the coup will be affected.
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Sideroxylon said:
Just a long-serving teacher who happened to enjoy the mild and education-focused approach of a certain preacher who lives in America.


This is what terrorist propaganda looks like:
https://www.fountainmagazine.com/fethullah-gulen
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Oh dear! That's terrible. Would it be fair to make a parallel between the followers of Fethullah Gulen and the Chinese religion of Falun Gong?

And similarly to make a parallel between Erdogan and the Chinese Communist Party?

Furthermore, are you not concerned about being involved in these discussions and linking to various websites?
 
Today's decree on the closure of institutions linked to Fethullah Gülen:

According to the Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s office, the decree will close 1,043 private schools, 1,229 foundations and associations, 35 medical institutions, 19 unions, and 15 universities. Their assets will be seized by the treasury. The presidency said that parliament will be able to vote on the measure.

link
 
GlennB said:
The presidency said that parliament will be able to vote on the measure.
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The fascinating thing is that on paper the Turkish president still has a role comparable to the German president with mostly representative functions. But, as Erdogan himself said, de facto he runs the show and so his project is to adjust the constitution to fit that fact. :boggled:
 
Childlike Empress said:
The fascinating thing is that on paper the Turkish president still has a role comparable to the German president with mostly representative functions. But, as Erdogan himself said, de facto he runs the show and so his project is to adjust the constitution to fit that fact. :boggled:
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Well, that's the difference between political and legal power. I wonder if there is some kind of secret police that Erdogan controls directly?
 
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