Epstein suicide conspiracy theories

[dann]

The Late Show with Stephen Colbert:
Epstein Death Sets Off Wild Wave Of Conspiracy Theories



The Daily Show with Trevor Noah also mentions Trump's conspiracy theory:



And Late Night with Seth Meyers:

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Are all the Epstein Clones in the tanks on his Island accounted for?

 

[Wudang]

Meh. Supposedly the jail staff were short-handed and overworked link


If that's true these guys are going to tired and pissed off and looking to do the minimum. Seems the simplest provisional explanation to me.



Though I did snort at "Epstein's suicide was a big surprise.......especially to him."

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I do think it was a bit suspicious when ElChapo became his cellmate.

 

[Giordano]

If there is a conspiracy to do him in it need not be a full cloak and dagger job with a hired eastern European hitman infiltrating the prison then waiting for just the right time. It could be simply a deal where they "accidentally" leave material that could be used for suicide then "accidentally" have a lapse in guard shifts overnight.



I mean that would just seem to me to be the most parsimonious means of doing it. The most likely explanation is that he just exploited incompetence to off himself outside of anyone else wanting it to happen.



But, still, I'm going to be mighty curious what all the investigations turn up.

I agree with your scenario: guy apparently wants to commit suicide and is alleged to have tried it unsuccessfully a few days before. Many people, ranging from prison guards with young daughters to very powerful people at the top of the criminal justice and political system agree with him: he would be bettter dead vs. alive. So what is so hard to accidentally omit a few extra precautions: give him a sheet, no cell mate, and a substantially reduced schedule of checks by guards. Not very different from many normal prisoners. And then lots of these people are pleasantly surprised one morning....

Assigning intent to these omissions, rather than it all being a wrong decision by over-worked prison staff, will be virtually impossible to prove.

 

[Axxman300]

Assigning intent to these omissions, rather than it all being a wrong decision by over-worked prison staff, will be virtually impossible to prove.

Okay, but there's no way anyone has been paid off. They'll watch the tax returns of those guards for the next decade, so what's the payoff? Nobody's getting a promotion, some of them might be transferred to jobs in New Jersey (hardly a promotion), but a few heads will roll with this one. Every move: Taking him off suicide watch, and removing his roommate will have a paper trail, and everyone in the loop will have their phone and email records examined.

IF there was a conspiracy the guy making the moves would have to be or have been a Federal prosecutor at some point. I don't see how this would work since his name is going to pop up on a list at some point and this will get him 20 years.

 

[CORed]

I'm first going to say that, in all probability, Hanlon's razor applies, and this was a suicide, enabled by incompetence of the prison staff.

However, I think it is conceivable that somebody higher up dropped some hints to the prison staff that it would be convenient if Epstein died. It is, IMO, much more likely that this took the form of not making an effort to prevent a suicide than an actual murder In the unlikely event that this is the case, the question is, who might that be? Epstein had connections with both the Trump and the Clintons. We know which of those is currently in power, and there is some evidence that Trump had some idea of what was going on, though no evidence that I'm aware of that he actually participated. I'm sure Trump supporters will counter that it could have been deep state operatives dong the bidding of the Clintons. In any case, it's highly unlikely that there is any record of such instruction, and we will never know for sure.

 

[bknight]

<snip>
there is some evidence that Trump had some idea of what was going on, though no evidence that I'm aware of that he actually participated. I'm sure Trump supporters will counter that it could have been deep state operatives dong the bidding of the Clintons. In any case, it's highly unlikely that there is any record of such instruction, and we will never know for sure.

What do you infer by "some idea of what was going on" in reference to what? You failed to support any statement here. Yes Trump has tweeted that the Clintons are somehow responsible.

 

[CORed]

What do you infer by "some idea of what was going on" in reference to what? You failed to support any statement here. Yes Trump has tweeted that the Clintons are somehow responsible.

I'm referring to what I've read in a few places about Trump having said at some time in the past that Epstein had a lot of girls and "likes them young". I don't have a source, and I don't know how accurate that is, or how much Trump actually knew. As I said, I think it is by far most likely that Epstein was allowed to commit suicide by nothing more than the indifference of the prison staff. However, it does seem to me that there is at least some possibility that ether or both Trump and the Clintons had something to hide. I realize that "cui bono" by itself is not evidence that anything criminal actually was done by either. I'm merely speculating that such a thing is at least remotely possible.

 

[Arcade22]

Many people, ranging from prison guards with young daughters to very powerful people at the top of the criminal justice and political system agree with him: he would be bettter dead vs. alive. So what is so hard to accidentally omit a few extra precautions: give him a sheet, no cell mate, and a substantially reduced schedule of checks by guards. Not very different from many normal prisoners. And then lots of these people are pleasantly surprised one morning....

Assigning intent to these omissions, rather than it all being a wrong decision by over-worked prison staff, will be virtually impossible to prove.

Yes the LIHOP crackpot conspiracy theory. Thinking caps off, tinfoil hats on!

 

[Arcade22]

In the unlikely event that this is the case, the question is, who might that be? Epstein had connections with both the Trump and the Clintons.

You do know that they are all merely pawns of the worldwide Jewish cabal? Right?

 

[Venom]

I don't think most people know how boring it is to work security, let alone long hours supervision of a single jail inmate.

I see a determined pretrial inmate, as history shows, succeeding when the cracks widen even a little.

 

[CORed]

You do know that they are all merely pawns of the worldwide Jewish cabal? Right?

Well sure, but for some reason, that view seems to be somewhat unpopular around here. Maybe because it's pure, unadulterated bovine feces.

 

[CORed]

Okay, but there's no way anyone has been paid off. They'll watch the tax returns of those guards for the next decade, so what's the payoff? Nobody's getting a promotion, some of them might be transferred to jobs in New Jersey (hardly a promotion), but a few heads will roll with this one. Every move: Taking him off suicide watch, and removing his roommate will have a paper trail, and everyone in the loop will have their phone and email records examined.

IF there was a conspiracy the guy making the moves would have to be or have been a Federal prosecutor at some point. I don't see how this would work since his name is going to pop up on a list at some point and this will get him 20 years.

I envision something more like some hints verbally passed down the chain of command, nothing that would leave a record, or that could even be construed with certainty, even if reported, to allow suicide. Mind you, I think it is far more likely that Epstein was determined to kill himself, and took advantage of laxness or indifference on the part of the prison staff, but I don't think it's totally beyond the realm of possibility that the laxness or indifference was encouraged. If so, it was not smart on the part of prison staff to act on such, if it actually happened, as they will bear the brunt of the blame for the suicide, though I wouldn't be surprised if the warden (or whatever the head honcho of the prison is called) to be demoted, or transferred to a job with little responsibility.

 

[Giordano]

Okay, but there's no way anyone has been paid off. They'll watch the tax returns of those guards for the next decade, so what's the payoff? Nobody's getting a promotion, some of them might be transferred to jobs in New Jersey (hardly a promotion), but a few heads will roll with this one. Every move: Taking him off suicide watch, and removing his roommate will have a paper trail, and everyone in the loop will have their phone and email records examined.

IF there was a conspiracy the guy making the moves would have to be or have been a Federal prosecutor at some point. I don't see how this would work since his name is going to pop up on a list at some point and this will get him 20 years.

I think you are suggesting investigations of much greater length and intensity than anything that would normally be implemented, let alone the types likely implemented that would reflect the lack of interest by most of those involved in distinguishing incompetence from intent. Ten years? Come on. It will all blow over in a few month with wishy washy conclusions.

Investigation of tax returns? What if a guard wasn't paid in money at all, but just asked to do this as a favor that the guard was already disposed toward (child molesters are not viewed favorably by many). Or is paid $2000 in cash?


Based on how I see institutions protecting themselves very few heads will roll, if any, even if the suicide is attributed to incompetence. The assignment of incompetence will likely be a diffuse one with few or no individuals bearing a big share of the responsibility. Or they will pick a guard or two and include a negative letter in their file.

And yes, a guard could easily later receive a promotion, even with a negative letter, without it raising any red flags: promotions are part of the normal prison employment system and often arbitrary. Obtaining a one step promotion a few years from now, perhaps even two before retirement, can easily be justified by invoking any of the normal, often subjective criteria:after this error the guard demonstrated a strongly enhanced dedication to work above that required, improved design and implementation of safety regulations, greater and more effective team work. None of these would stand out in particular, and could never really be shown as improper in even an intense and long investigation.

All this happens in both private and public institutions with great frequency if the "higher ups" wish it to, and it can easily be done quietly and with no proof of violating regulations or laws.

But let me emphasize: I am not committed to believing this was intentional, just that it looks so suspicious I believe that one must consider this as among the likely scenarios. In fact at this point from what I know I would feel somewhat more naive if I simply bought into the incompetence theory: that this very important and highly visible prisoner, who many important people in and out of the criminal justice system would prefer dead and who tried suicide before, is treated with less concern than the average joe. Occam's razor? But sure, perhaps the prison system was just this stupid.

 

[Giordano]

Yes the LIHOP crackpot conspiracy theory. Thinking caps off, tinfoil hats on!

I didn't think about the lizard people! Ah - indeed. But did they kill Epstein, wa Epstein one of them, or both??

 

[CORed]

I think you are suggesting investigations of much greater length and intensity than anything that would normally be implemented, let alone the types likely implemented that would reflect the lack of interest by most of those involved in distinguishing incompetence from intent. Ten years? Come on. It will all blow over in a few month with wishy washy conclusions.

Investigation of tax returns? What if a guard wasn't paid in money at all, but just asked to do this as a favor that the guard was already disposed toward (child molesters are not viewed favorably by many). Or is paid $2000 in cash?


Based on how I see institutions protecting themselves very few heads will roll, if any, even if the suicide is attributed to incompetence. The assignment of incompetence will likely be a diffuse one with few or no individuals bearing a big share of the responsibility. Or they will pick a guard or two and include a negative letter in their file.

And yes, a guard could easily later receive a promotion, even with a negative letter, without it raising any red flags: promotions are part of the normal prison employment system and often arbitrary. Obtaining a one step promotion a few years from now, perhaps even two before retirement, can easily be justified by invoking any of the normal, often subjective criteria:after this error the guard demonstrated a strongly enhanced dedication to work above that required, improved design and implementation of safety regulations, greater and more effective team work. None of these would stand out in particular, and could never really be shown as improper in even an intense and long investigation.

All this happens in both private and public institutions with great frequency if the "higher ups" wish it to, and it can easily be done quietly and with no proof of violating regulations or laws.

But let me emphasize: I am not committed to believing this was intentional, just that it looks so suspicious I believe that one must consider this as among the likely scenarios. In fact at this point from what I know I would feel somewhat more naive if I simply bought into the incompetence theory: that this very important and highly visible prisoner, who many important people in and out of the criminal justice system would prefer dead and who tried suicide before, is treated with less concern than the average joe. Occam's razor? But sure, perhaps the prison system was just this stupid.

Federal pensions are based on years of service and the average of the average of the highest three years' salary, so a promotion a few years before retirement can be worth a significant amount of money.

 

[CORed]

I think you are suggesting investigations of much greater length and intensity than anything that would normally be implemented, let alone the types likely implemented that would reflect the lack of interest by most of those involved in distinguishing incompetence from intent. Ten years? Come on. It will all blow over in a few month with wishy washy conclusions.

Investigation of tax returns? What if a guard wasn't paid in money at all, but just asked to do this as a favor that the guard was already disposed toward (child molesters are not viewed favorably by many). Or is paid $2000 in cash?


Based on how I see institutions protecting themselves very few heads will roll, if any, even if the suicide is attributed to incompetence. The assignment of incompetence will likely be a diffuse one with few or no individuals bearing a big share of the responsibility. Or they will pick a guard or two and include a negative letter in their file.

And yes, a guard could easily later receive a promotion, even with a negative letter, without it raising any red flags: promotions are part of the normal prison employment system and often arbitrary. Obtaining a one step promotion a few years from now, perhaps even two before retirement, can easily be justified by invoking any of the normal, often subjective criteria:after this error the guard demonstrated a strongly enhanced dedication to work above that required, improved design and implementation of safety regulations, greater and more effective team work. None of these would stand out in particular, and could never really be shown as improper in even an intense and long investigation.

All this happens in both private and public institutions with great frequency if the "higher ups" wish it to, and it can easily be done quietly and with no proof of violating regulations or laws.

But let me emphasize: I am not committed to believing this was intentional, just that it looks so suspicious I believe that one must consider this as among the likely scenarios. In fact at this point from what I know I would feel somewhat more naive if I simply bought into the incompetence theory: that this very important and highly visible prisoner, who many important people in and out of the criminal justice system would prefer dead and who tried suicide before, is treated with less concern than the average joe. Occam's razor? But sure, perhaps the prison system was just this stupid.

You are correct. It's likely that the most that will come out of an investigation will be some recommended changes in policy, which may or may not ever be implemented.

 

[bknight]

I'm referring to what I've read in a few places about Trump having said at some time in the past that Epstein had a lot of girls and "likes them young". I don't have a source, and I don't know how accurate that is, or how much Trump actually knew. As I said, I think it is by far most likely that Epstein was allowed to commit suicide by nothing more than the indifference of the prison staff. However, it does seem to me that there is at least some possibility that ether or both Trump and the Clintons had something to hide. I realize that "cui bono" by itself is not evidence that anything criminal actually was done by either. I'm merely speculating that such a thing is at least remotely possible.

Then I suggest that you are only spreading rumors which you are unable to substantiate.

 

[wasapi]

Then I suggest that you are only spreading rumors which you are unable to substantiate.

I recall reading the same, and may check later to locate a link.