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Engaged?

CFLarsen said:
Is it correct that some actually celebrate Christmas as the birth of Jesus?
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Is it correct that some actually worship Thor on Thrusday?

(hint the answer is "yes" to both, but irrelevant)

What has any of this got to do with your definition of engaged?
 
CFLarsen said:
That poses a problem: Namely, with a social convention that is impossible to escape. Even though a couple makes a point out of not wanting to go through the whole "engagement" hullabaloo, they can't, because no matter what they do, people will see them as "engaged", with the various social values that come with different groups of people....
Inescapable social conventions is something we should be very aware of, especially as skeptics...
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CFLarsen said:
When someone is telling a couple who insist that they won't be part of the "engagement" thing that they are "engaged", with all the societal baggage that comes with it ("Ooooo, fancy that, dear! You're engaged! Where's your ring, dear? Can we 'ave a look? When's the weddin'? 'ow many people did you invite?"), they most certainly are imposing their own social values.
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You evidentally think that engagement, by definition, can't exist without 'hullabaloo'. I'll make this simple: does this hullabaloo define engagement to you? Is it possible to be engaged according to our definition (intent to marry) without it?

Athon
 
Professor Yaffle said:
When I had a foetus inside my womb, I heard that if I was pregnant lots of people would like to make a fuss and pat my belly and offer advice. All sorts of hullabaloo. So I decided I wouldn't be pregnant, I would just tell people I was going to have a baby in x months time. Funnily it didn't stop the making fuss, patting belly, advice offering etc. Those people foisting pregnancy on me, its just not on!
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Haha, brilliant. Good analogy.

Athon
 
athon said:
Haha, brilliant. Good analogy.

Athon
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Surely one other person was involved in "foisting" pregnancy on her?

Just think though, if those people hadn't made a fuss, offered advice and patted her belly, she wouldn't have been pregnant.
 
CFLarsen said:
Do you celebrate Christmas?
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I cannot for the life of me see what the hell that means.

I visit family at Christmas because my family have a traditional Christian background. I exchange gifts as a part of the social and family tradition, because I enjoy the involvement.

Friends of mine don't celebrate Christmas. One mate loves to work on Christmas day for the overtime he gets.

What the hell does any of this have to do with engagement?

Athon
 
brodski said:
Is it correct that some actually worship Thor on Thrusday?

(hint the answer is "yes" to both, but irrelevant)
Click to expand...

That's precisely it: Some actually worship Thor on Thursday. Some actually celebrate Christmas as the birth of Jesus.

But that doesn't mean that you and I necessarily worship Thor on Thursday and celebrate Christmas as the birth of Jesus.

So, if one custom can be interpreted differently, and different values attached to it, why can't you extend the same courtesy to other people, when it comes to engagement?

If Teek doesn't want to be engaged, and she doesn't want to be seen as engaged, who the hell are you - or anyone else - to tell her she is?

Don't say that "engagement" doesn't come with connotations. You tell people that you are engaged, and they will heap all sorts of what they expect an engagement to be on you.

Yet, you would be offended, if Christians did that to you, if you told them you celebrate Christmas.
 
CFLarsen said:
That's precisely it: Some actually worship Thor on Thursday. Some actually celebrate Christmas as the birth of Jesus.

But that doesn't mean that you and I necessarily worship Thor on Thursday and celebrate Christmas as the birth of Jesus.

So, if one custom can be interpreted differently, and different values attached to it, why can't you extend the same courtesy to other people, when it comes to engagement?

If Teek doesn't want to be engaged, and she doesn't want to be seen as engaged, who the hell are you - or anyone else - to tell her she is?
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Assuming - just for the sake of the argument - that you do not celebrate christmas. Would it be okay to tell you that it's Christmas on or around December 25th?

Don't say that "engagement" doesn't come with connotations. You tell people that you are engaged, and they will heap all sorts of what they expect an engagement to be on you.
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So? That some people do not celebrate Christmas doesn't negate that the Date is recognized as Christmas.

Yet, you would be offended, if Christians did that to you, if you told them you celebrate Christmas.
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I do celebrate christmas, for a given value of celebrating. I do not, however, celebraste anyone's birthday on that date.

If I didn't celebrate it, then I would look funny at anyone who told me I would celebrate it. I wouldn't so much as react to anyone simply informing me that it is Christmas, though.

Incidentally, today is Tuesday.
 
CFLarsen said:
If Teek doesn't want to be engaged, and she doesn't want to be seen as engaged, who the hell are you - or anyone else - to tell her she is?
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If someone doesn't want it to be Tuesday, doesn't want to be seen to referring to it as Tuesday, who the hell are you - or anyone else - to tell her it is Tuesday?

Doesn't of course change the FACT that it is Tuesday.
 
A Minstrel said:
Brave Sir Larsen ran away.
Bravely ran away, away!
When danger reared its ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
Yes, brave Sir Larsen turned about
And gallantly he chickened out.
Bravely taking to his feet
He beat a very brave retreat,
Bravest of the brave, Sir Larsen!
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I reckon he's more like The Black Knight from the same film. He's been cut to pieces in this thread, but he constantly denies ever having been wounded and fights on, to his further detriment.
 
CFLarsen said:
That's precisely it: Some actually worship Thor on Thursday. Some actually celebrate Christmas as the birth of Jesus.

But that doesn't mean that you and I necessarily worship Thor on Thursday and celebrate Christmas as the birth of Jesus.

So, if one custom can be interpreted differently, and different values attached to it, why can't you extend the same courtesy to other people, when it comes to engagement?

If Teek doesn't want to be engaged, and she doesn't want to be seen as engaged, who the hell are you - or anyone else - to tell her she is?

Don't say that "engagement" doesn't come with connotations. You tell people that you are engaged, and they will heap all sorts of what they expect an engagement to be on you.

Yet, you would be offended, if Christians did that to you, if you told them you celebrate Christmas.
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Tthe simple fact is that the day between Wednesday and Friday is Thursday no matter what your religious beliefs, and the time between agreeing to marry and the end of that agreement (through marriage or otherwise) is engagement, and the time between conception and birth is pregnancy, regardless of anyone’s protestations to the contrary.
As I said before Claus, reality isn’t just another social value.
 
CFLarsen said:
That's precisely it: Some actually worship Thor on Thursday. Some actually celebrate Christmas as the birth of Jesus.
Click to expand...

Nobody's denying that is the case. It is irrelevant to your argument.

So, if one custom can be interpreted differently, and different values attached to it, why can't you extend the same courtesy to other people, when it comes to engagement?
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And here is the core of it; values attached to it. Nobody says engagement can't have values attached to it. Nobody. Find one person who says the term defined as 'engagement' can't have values, ceremonies, rings, dancing bears, singing midgets...just one!

But engagement itself is not a value but a description of a state of relations. The fact you won't define engagement means you are aware of this.

Don't say that "engagement" doesn't come with connotations. You tell people that you are engaged, and they will heap all sorts of what they expect an engagement to be on you.
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Like what? What do they expect an engagement to be? You say 'hullabaloo', and insinuate vaguely 'rings and ceremony', but they are actions commonly associated with engagement (which do not define engagement themselves), not 'connotations' or 'values'.

Athon
 
Rasmus said:
Actually, I don't think engagement is a custom. There are some customs associated to it, but that's not the same.

A pregnancy isn't a custome, even thouigh some people may decide to have baby showers.

Engagement is a state of being. i't something you are, not something you do.

On the same note, it's still christmas regardless of who does or doesn't celebrate it.
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Funny how everybody but Claus can see this, plain as day.

Athon
 
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